The Neo cannot scale with macOS behind on the basics | Hacker News Reader

The Neo cannot scale with macOS behind on the basics

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71 pointspholbrook62 comments

I remember circa 2017 working for startups and traveling a lot. Most of the people were using macs but I had an Alienware because that way I could have a real GPU and train neural nets locally.

Back then a mac worked much better with the docks I could find and monitors that had a dock plugged in. It was close to instant and "just works" on the Mac whereas the Windows computer would take 45 seconds to enumerate the dock every time.

The other day we had a power failure that caused my home server which normally runs headless to go down and stay down. Right next to that server is a Mac with a Studio display which has no ordinary ports like HDMI, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort, whatever. I had to take the server upstairs and plug it into a old cheap monitor I had there and it turned out that somehow the *-extras package didn't get installed by Ubuntu and I had no network card drivers. Not hard to fix, but another illustration of how Apple products often are just a little less useful and valuable than they could be.

When Apple still had intel chips, I remember how long it used to take for external displays to be properly detected and to start working. The first time I used a M series chip, suddenly the displays were detected and started working in a second or two. I had assumed that that’s how long it always had to take, when in reality it could an order of magnitude quicker, and on a thunderbolt dock.

I’ve had that exact thing happen in Ubuntu too. Needed a usb Ethernet dongle to get it working again.

Why does Apple get shade here??

Well... I think Apple's monitors are a clear expression of the dark side of the brand. I mean, fanbois have rewarded them for something that doesn't really deserve reward. I mean, a few people can afford to pay 3x what a monitor is worth for a monitor which only works with one brand of computer. [1]

I think it led to the AVP product failure because "of course people are going to spend $3000 so they can be the lonely guy watching a movie and popping popcorn all alone". Had Apple customers given them some discipline (like "I could buy three monitors for that price") they might have made the AVP compatible with immersive games or tried to pack them in with seats of Dassault 3DExperience or something better than that.

See Clayton Christensen's idea of "disruptive innovation" which blames the customers of firms for being uninterested in new and appropriate technology. Since his work got famous we've seen an epidemic of companies like Microsoft that, from the viewpoint of customers, look like they are high on drugs, because they're afraid their current customers will keep them stuck in the past.

[1] to be fair I have a lot of computers, including weird SBCs, it's a regular occurrence that I need to plug something into a monitor, any monitor, for a few hours.

I don’t think your original comment made it clear it was an Apple monitor

I agree with the criticisms of modern macOS. However, let’s not forget their competitor is Windows. So even if they aren’t going great, it’s not like they have stiff competiton. Thats before even getting into hardware where Microsoft is even further behind.

It’s unfortunate that it’s so hard to disrupt this space.

As a Linux user it's hard to understand people using either windows or mac. At this point it's looking more like brainwashing than out of convenience.

As someone that bought all paper editions of Linux Journal, PS2 Linux owner, got introduced to UNIX via Xenix, it is a matter of convenience.

People can't buy Linux laptops at Media Market, there are no Linux stores with genies,...

A BSD user would likely have the same sentiment about Linux users.

Yeah, like, it's not even that difficult to re-compile your media player in order for it to support a new format you want, like FLAC.

Yes yes, I can already hear the naysayers "it's not that easy". It actually is! Just make sure you have the appropriate GLIBC version and a specific version of either clang or GCC that is compatible (hey it's Linux, you can choose!). Then do the usual ./configure --with-openssl=<CUSTOM_SSL_LIB_BECAUSE_THE_STOCK_ONE_IS_TOO_OLD>, make, make install (remember to use sudo on that one because we write some system files).

Honestly, the whole process took me just two hours from start to finish. Easy peasy.

I'd much rather do that than buying hardware that is massively overpr... oh, you're saying they're cheaper than Linux laptops now? Idk man ... I would still not buy any of that, those are definitely for brainwashed cattle.

As a long time user of all 3, it's hard to understand why people would use Linux as a main driver, especially if they aren't just programmers, but also dabble in video or music.

Because 1 is free and the other 2 cost $$$.

Really? When every thread about linux on a laptop includes comments like “palm rejection doesn’t work but I use an external mouse so I don’t care” and “the laptop gets hot in my backpack because sleep/suspend doesn’t work so I just power it down” you’re still not sure why people are using a windows or a mac?

At this point I’m beginning to suspect that linux users have stockholm syndrome. Or is Tux standing behind you with a gun?

I know, I know, you don’t have any of those problems. You have the Blessed Configuration that has the right tradeoffs for you. But like… most people don’t want to spend waking hours reading Archwiki to figure out why their wifi drops when they move from one room in their house to another…

most people don't have any of those problems.

what you need to consider is that only those people who actually do have problems will talk about them. the rest of us stay silent. also, linux users are more vocal, they don't stay silent about problems. that's what gets things fixed

People make choices based on information in the market. The question in the thread was “why are people using Mac and Windows?” One answer is: linux is not well known, and what is know is that Linux is a hassle.

On the contrary, it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively. Instead we get surface-level change for the sake of change as well as slop and surveillance nobody asked for, and are still missing conveniences that have been table-stakes on mobile for years. It would be a a step in the right direction if Windows would simply stop disrupting itself.

> it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively

There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness. They work fine if that's your workflow. Most folks' workflows, unfortunately, are not that.

>There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness.

It's a choice between arbitrary changes and constant redesigns every 4-5 years, versus bare-bones distros and DEs.

The parent asks for a third option: well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features.

> well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features

I’m arguing this niche barely exists. Folks who want to run modern software tend to want something that “looks” modern.

>Folks who want to run modern software tend to want something that “looks” modern.

Looks that way because nobody asked them, and marketing types and designers decide for them...

fedora. stable, not bleeding edge but frequently updated (twice a year).

Lets also not forget the salaries of most people outside US and Europe.

Doesn't seem to prevent half of the world from buying iOS devices with equally inflated prices.

Except Apple laptops usually aren't subsidised by mobile phone operators, offered for free in exchange of a five year contract, where the owner is actually the mobile operator due to device locking.

That's not been the case here (the Netherlands) for years since the 'hidden loan' of the phone was outlawed. Yet everybody under 20 aspires to have an iPhone.

Where is Netherlands located?

Then go back to my original comment.

Additionally, do you happen to know even in Europe, what is average salary of the southern countries and why so many folks try to move into central and northen Europe?

Naturally buying an iPhone, or anything Apple, with a Dutch salary doesn't need hand holding.

This seems like a vehicle for complaining about a pet list of missing macOS features rather than actually being commentary about the Neo.

For instance, they are arguing that Apple is pushing users toward a Thunderbolt dock - on a computer without Thunderbolt.

The MacBook neo is a great Mac for anyone who is fine with the built in apps, and doesn’t know what a gigabyte is.

In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal.

>In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal

no kidding, when that soc is on the top sellign iphone AND top selling macbook.

economies of scale is the 9th wonder of the world

It's a bit of a silly point now since the Neo only supports one external display anyways* but if they do support 2 or more displays it will be a problem. Even if they add TB support when they do, unless the prices of TB docks drop dramatically they'll have the same problem.

* Earlier mobile phone SoC in a laptop devices from Qualcomm still supported two or more external displays!

While I agree the missing MST support complaint is valid it seems very far fetched to me it's a deal breaker preventing Mac adoption. Most people only use 1 screen, a fraction of people dual screen (especially laptop users) and only a tiny fraction have or really need more screens.

I've been using a Macbook as my personal laptop since 2008 when they introduced the first aluminum chassis and still these things the author raises are still little quirks I wish Mac would resolve.

most of my nonengineer friends are using laptops that are built like junk and falling apart with dismal performance. a $600 mac thats easy to repair and does the basics is such an easy recommendation for so many of them

It’s interesting to see the big about Virtual Desktops being surpassed by Windows here.

I still can’t get thumbnail previews of my Virtual Desktops at the top of my screen. I see the desktops but they’re blank.

And missing that context is tricky when you have four of them (:

I think this is fundamentally misdiagnosing why Macs haven’t dominated. It is actually not about the monitor support but about:

- government and corporate bulk contracts ?and this is usually a result of software only working on Windows.) - expensive (thus affecting for most home users and also corporate bulk buyers who can not tell the difference.) - lack of high end game support

That is why it doesn’t have more market share.

You are thinking too much about minor technical issues.

That is to be expected, but lets not distract all those Apple outlets how Apple is going to take down the 80% market share of Windows with Neo.

I run Windows in a VM when I really need a file manager. Because explorer is that much better, sadly, with saner look and feel.

I run DoubleCommander when I really need a file manager :)

Have mostly had the same complaints with MacOS since the beginning. Also something I'd like to see mentioned is the refusal to add a tiny X on the corners of windows in the Mission Control view, and the only workaround I've found is some 8$ app on AppStore.

Still can't believe how much better it felt to log in to KDE (admittedly not my favorite) on my Steam Deck when I had to configure something and got to use the file manager. It just let me... do stuff that MacOS wants to hide from me. Cmd-shift-. to show hidden files, seriously? Cmd-shift-G to go to a path?!

I've been using MacOS exclusively for 5 years now and had forgotten how much I like working on linux - I definitely haven't forgotten how much I dislike Windows though...

None of those will prevent Neo to scaling to record sales

Wow, this is the first time I've read someone who actually says that Windows is ... better ... than MacOS. Wow.

I've used macs for pushing 20 years. The external monitor story remains crap. Even on a recent mbp and a $1500 LG 5k ultrawide. Plug it in and the display flickers back and forth. etc. Apple do not care.

Compared to when I recently tried a Starbook (so, made for Linux) for a few months, MacOS monitor management is like silk. Despite using the same display every day for work, Ubuntu failed constantly to even get the resolution right every day. Meanwhile my Mac somehow guesses which side of the computer the monitor is on (even on new setups) almost always correctly. That last part I have no idea how they do it.

> Meanwhile my Mac somehow guesses which side of the computer the monitor is on (even on new setups) almost always correctly. That last part I have no idea how they do it.

I have no idea how macOS does it, but the obvious thing to try is to leave the relative positioning undefined until the first time the user tries to move the mouse off one screen, and assume they're aiming for the other screen.

It would probably make sense to constrain this to horizontal movements, so that taking advantage of Fitts' Law to hit the menu bar or the Dock (at the bottom by default) wouldn't produce a false positive signal about display positioning when stacked display setups are less common than side by side.

I think macOS makes some trade-offs to give a supposedely better user experience as long you're part of the 80%. If you're not though, yes it is painful.

For me the macOS Display management experience is absolute dreadful. I had the same issues as the author's and I even had to pay actual money for a third party application (BetterDisplay) to fix some of the issues.

The most infurienting one for me is that I can't disable the internal MacBook display when I am connected to an external monitor without closing the lid. Why you may ask? Because I want to keep using the TouchID. However this is impossible in macOS without an external app.

Which external app even allows that?

BetterDisplay allow you to disable the internal monitor while keeping the lid open, this way I can still use TouchID.

I wonder if they nerfed HDMI connectivity to get people to buy the expensive Apple Studio displays. I just bought myself a Studio XDR, and my MBP now wakes up in under 2 seconds, compared to about 30 seconds with my old Dell monitor.

More likely that they spend a lot of time getting Apple devices to work just right, and not nearly as much on the rest. Same result, but less malicious.

That’s disappointing. I never had any problems with external monitors on MacOS. I have two 4k monitors. I use a Thunderbolt dock because I understand how much data 4k screens push, and how a USB dock won’t cut it. I think if you’re having flickering, you might want to try new cables?

> I use a Thunderbolt dock because I understand how much data 4k screens push, and how a USB dock won’t cut it.

To elaborate on this point: a USB-C dock that includes display connectivity needs to operate at least some of the high-speed lanes of the USB-C connector in DisplayPort Alternate mode. If you split it with two lanes for DisplayPort and two lanes for USB 3.0 signals, then you have halved the potential display bandwidth.

But it's also valid to use all of the high-speed lanes for the DisplayPort signals, limiting the USB bandwidth to the USB 2.0 signals that are carried over separate wires. This is adequate for connecting a keyboard and mouse, but not ideal if you want the dock to provide 1GbE or plan to do large file transfers to external storage devices connected through the dock.

Thunderbolt doesn't always achieve quite the same video bandwidth as raw DP Alt mode, but it allows both DP data and USB data to be multiplexed over all of the high-speed lanes of the USB-C cable, so you can be using more than half the bandwidth for displays and still have enough left over for USB 3.0.

But I don't think the above particularly matters to your use case, because Apple's hardware doesn't support DisplayPort Multi-Stream Transport so the Thunderbolt dock is the only way to drive multiple monitors from just one of the Mac's Type-C ports.

It's flickering during the initial negotiation. And resolutions snapping up and down. Once macos connects it works.

Windows just kinda works on this monitor. It was the same on my last setup too...

That's super frustrating! I had that problem when I was a heavy Linux user, but have had success with MacOS. I hope it gets figured out for you, it would drive me insane.

I would've said that at the tail end of Windows 10. I got my first Mac via work just as Windows 11 was coming out (having switched my personal devices to Linux), and my memories of Windows were much better than whatever version of MacOS I was using at the time. But my next work computer was Windows 11 (I got tired of the differences between MacOS's shell and Debian on all our servers so I just wanted to use WSL) and Windows 11 is the worst OS I've ever used

I don’t think TFA said Windows is better overall, but c’mon, even a diehard Mac user like myself can see how stagnated, say, task/app switching is on macOS in comparison to Windows. And things like Mission Control always seemed like a “we’ll come back and polish that up later” feature, but they never did come back to it.

I use cmd-tab/cmd-` on macos, and alt-tab on windows. I feel they're mostly equivalent, not sure what's wrong with task switching. The real issue is finding the right window/tab I want in my browser, but searching tabs is now a thing and works for me pretty much everytime.

AltTab works well for me on macOS https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/

Hyperswitch and Hyperdock solved the problems for me. Couldn't live without actual alt-tab behavior or window previews.

Here is another one, using Windows since version 3.0, and I get to use macOS in some projects.

I will never buy an Apple device for private use.

“Mac OS X” > Windows > modern macOS

The author says: "This is my detailed criticism of macOS (in market context of the Neo), and the many paper cuts Apple needs to fix to catch up."

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