Comment by nephihaha | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nephihaha | Hacker News Reader

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Every parish church in England (more or less) has flown the St. George's cross traditionally for as long as I can remember. There is nothing wrong with that. Conversely, Union Jacks are a major symbol of Loyalism and Orangeism in Ireland, and parts of Scotland, which is an extremely aggressive and "hands on" movement. Union Jacks can be seen in pictures of every far right movement going back a century or more.

The Union Jack is a symbol of empire and colonialism which the St. George's Cross isn't.

However, the football thing is more recent. If you watch "the Italian Job" from the 1960s, the England fans wave around Union Jacks instead of their own specific flag (as Scotland and Wales fans would). Clearly in the intervening years, England fans have discovered the England flag.

Scottish and Welsh people seem to be a lot more comfortable with their identity than English do. And that includes their flags. I have seen countless bits of research which suggest that ethnic minorities happily identify as Scottish and Welsh in Scotland and Wales, but in England, they identify as British rather than English. I suggest you read Billy Bragg's "the Progressive Patriot". He is an English socialist who has tried to reclaim English identity from the far right, which he is entitled to.

England has a unique position in the Union, and indeed much of the world, where it is seen as an historic and current oppressive force, and our attitude to flags has to acknowledge that context.

In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the Union Flag is a reminder that the UK countries are ultimately run by England, where there isn’t a true acknowledgement that the countries are culturally different, let alone able to rule themselves.

Within England the St George’s Cross has become a symbol of exceptionalism and superiority, not least because it is prominently flown on nationalist and supremacist marches. Since the Union Jack includes the other countries in the Union, use of St George is often seen as a snub to the other countries.

So England can’t win? No. Correctly so, IMO, because of history and context (I am English).

I do not consider myself English, but Scottish. I remember ?fifteen years ago defending the St. George's Cross from English people arguing against it. The irony!

We do occasionally get billboards with company X saying they support England, but other than that it isn't an issue in Scotland.

Like Billy Bragg says, there is a strong case for reclaiming the English flag from the far right.

The Union Jack in Scotland has a much more complex history, particularly in and around Glasgow where it is connected with extreme loyalism and Orangeism (which is where a lot of the Scottish Reform party vote will come from.) In Northern Ireland, it is hated by a large section of the population. In Wales and Scotland, some independence supporters hate the Union Jack too.

The Union Jack has a strong association with the far right and loyalism, not to mention imperialism and somehow gets a free pass.

The Union Flag is much more of a right-wing symbol in Scotland, as you say (I lived in Scotland for 10 years) but in England the GC is far more associated with nationalism and the right, while the Union Flag is a bit more VE Day, church fetes and Cool Britannia, and gives more of a “working together” vibe than that of oppression.

Much of that is due to schooling and media conditioning, of course, but the flags mean different things to different people.

In Scotland it varies by region. In the north east and the borders, it is more innocuous although contentious. In the Central Belt around Edinburgh and Glasgow it is often linked with working class loyalism, when it's not on a hotel or a government building.

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