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Comment by ofjcihen | Hacker News Reader

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The other day I half-jokingly said I was going to build a site to expose local council members for taking kickbacks and someone said "that isn't happening"

It's literally happening and this story makes it really clear. I wish it was this easy to spot. It's usually Flock donating to some charity a council person is also a board member on

>It's literally happening and this story makes it really clear

A council member "crashing out" (ie. proposing some satirical bills) is "really clear" evidence of kickbacks? Seems like a stretch. At the very least I'd want evidence of some transaction having occurred, rather than "wow you strongly support something I can't possibly imagine anyone would support? You must be getting kickbacks!"

In my opinion that should be enough to get some investigative journalists and private investigators poking around. Assuming investigative journalists are still a thing.

The problem is that this all hinges on what you think reasonable political positions are, and thanks to political polarization, everything on the other side is suspect. You support drilling for oil? You must be in the pocket of big oil! You support solar power? You must be in the pocket of chinese solar manufacturers. You support development? You must be in the pocket of luxury condo developers! You oppose development? You must be in the pocket of landlords!

The problem is that this all hinges on what you think reasonable political positions are

Well that's entirely up to the people. Anyone can be removed one way or another. This article is about a locality in Texas. Don't mess with Texans in a small town.

In a small town of 900 people, it seems odd a council member would be THAT upset about removing license plate reading camera systems, when it's clear the town doesn't want it. To get flustered enough to start proposing sarcastic bills, it's not a stretch to immediately think that there's at least some political maneuvering behind it, if not blatant kickbacks.

You never seen someone online or real life choose some trivial issue as a hill to die on? Moreover, what if the situation was reversed, and some politician crashes out over being anti-mass surveillance, even though most of the population supports it? Should we assume he's getting kickbacks from pedophiles and drug cartels?

Pedophiles and drug cartels are not operating legally, while unfortunately Flock is

No, the municipal policy ALPR debate generally does boil down to people who have a principles opposition to technology specialized for surveillance, and other people who believe it's no different from the cell towers that already track you.

Nobody's bribing a councilmember in an 800-person rural township.

> Nobody's bribing a councilmember in an 800-person rural township.

I suspect this happens a lot more often than people assume. It does not take much to bribe people to change their minds based on the publicly known international spy/espionage cases. People will sell out their country for like $5k.

First Law of Message Boards: bribery is fun to talk about, people just disagreeing about stuff and having little temper tantrums when they lose arguments is boring, ergo: bribery is everywhere.

> The First Law: Every forum is always in a state of constant decline.

> All forums start off good, enjoy a "honeymoon period" in which they continue to be good, and then steadily decline... from the point of view of each individual observer...

https://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2005/11/20/charles_rules_of_on...

I like this first law better.

Is this also true for organizations? Startup -> large company?

I guess you never dealt with enterprise sales, lobbying or any of the hundred of ways we legally allow bribes. Or do you only consider it bribery if its illegal and otherwise it's all fine?

Just box office baseball tickets, just a $2k steak dinner with high end wine, just a phone call with the governor, just a gift card, just an advisor position with some equity, etc, etc, etc.

"Temper tantrum" is a satisfying way to describe the speech of people we hate. Yes, sometimes it's an appropriate description, but it's also a big red flag. I think using that phrase flippantly on a forum in fact contributes to the degradation of that forum.

And besides, these days no ones giving straight cash to bribe, it's always via other means that are harder to trace and maybe not even directly monetary (sending them on a vacation, golfing, donations to charity...).

It's weird that people seem to act like lobbying doesn't exist at the city council level.

Or even just being their "friend". A little personal attention is often all that's needed to turn an otherwise aloof person into a champion.

I love how through the course of 3 comments, it went from "straightforwardly illegal" to "morally shady", then to "exactly how governments should work". What's the alternative here? Should people not be allowed to cultivate relationships with their representatives? Is it ethically dubious for you to go with a company with a responsive sales team that's friendly and answers your questions, compared to their competitor that takes 2 weeks to responds and sneers at you?

> Is it ethically dubious for you to go with a company with a responsive sales team that's friendly and answers your questions, compared to

Does said company operate against the best interests of the constituents?

I'm not sure what you're responding to. I'm just saying that you don't need to bribe people. Obviously while bribery is illegal, calling someone and listening to their problems, assuring them you're on their side, and telling them they are very smart is not illegal.

Yes, I’d say it is ethically dubious, especially when it goes against what the citizens were asking for. Definitely a fine line and a bit of a gray area but still, lots of gov officials don’t get caught up in this and manage just fine. It’s the ones that are easily swayed shouldn’t be in any position of power. Also IMO lobbying should be illegal.

I think a lot about another comment from a while ago that donated 100 dollars or something to his city. That had his state govenor personally call him to thank him in a 5 minute call.

It's not a bribe, but if a govenor is placing his time @ 1200/hour for an individualized bow of gratitude, I can only imagine how cheap it is for a not good govenor to sell out for his own personal interests.

At the scale these tech trillionaires are working, why not throw a few pennies at some small councilman?

Those old enough will remember when Hare Krishnas proved that for a lot of people even a single cheap flower can trigger a feeling of reciprocity. It doesn't take much. The Airplane joke exists because the best way to avoid that is to not accept. Once you do...

I've lived in a small community (pop<1000) and a budget of $5K could turn you into a shadow mayor.

Come on, a quick google search shows plenty of small town council members being charged with accepting bribes.

Days ago:

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/tarrant-county/north...

Multiple being charged at the same time:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mayor-ricardo-lopez-corru...

Hell, I remember my town of a few hundred at the time having a council member bribery case.

Is this definitive proof? Nah. But a smaller town doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. If anything it means it just costs less.

You're right, I was speaking imprecisely. Giant national companies are not bribing 800-person Texas hamlets to get the revenue for 3-4 cameras (less the bribe).

This has not happened with Flock, nor have they ever been credibly accused of this. And what a weak conspiracy style post to insinuate it has.

lol ok https://www.flocksafety.com/refer

> nor have they ever been accused of this

Sure they have. Just look at the accusation in the comment you're replying to.

credibly accused.

Doubt, we just haven't figured out the shells

Because proposing legislation to ban all technology after your vote to keep Flock was not in the majority is a totally normal response?

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