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Comment by b112 | Hacker News Reader

Is it? I get what you're saying, but asking for 1 byte 65536 times, is indeed different than asking for 65536 bytes, 1 time. There may be reasons, such as when you pull off the end of a buffer, it shifts. And the buffer size is 1 byte. Or 10. Or whatever.

No, I'm not saying that's why. I'm simply saying there is a difference between asking for 1 byte or 65k bytes of something. Even dd runs the same under Linux.

dd bs=10k count=1 is faster than bs=1 count=10k

I remember trying to recover some data from a spinning disk, and trying to slowly creep up on the data. So I wanted 1 byte per, I wanted it to nibble, until it hit whatever the errored part was. If I just grabbed the lot, it'd error out from the whole read.

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I glanced at https://github.com/busterb/libc-openbsd/blob/master/stdio/fr... and https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/gli....

The latter (as usual when comparing OpenBSD and Linux) is more complex, but both multiply count by size and then go their way.

Also, the API contract allows fread to read fewer bytes than requested. I would except any implementation to do that.

But maybe, somebody interpreted the contract differently than major OSes, in the sense that a call isn’t allowed to write partial size-sized chunks to user memory and/or advance the file position further than its return value advocates (that, I think, is something that the implementations above can do, and might be considered a bug)

> asking for 1 byte 65536 times, is indeed different than asking for 65536 bytes, 1 time.

Yes it's different. As others have noted, the difference is what is returned if less than 65536 are available to read in the file: total failure vs partial read.

There is, unsurprisingly, no requirement that it has an unnecessarily inefficient implementation to meet this behavioral requirement. (The C standard doesn't talk about such things as syscalls but, even if it did, it surely wouldn't require such a thing.)

The irony is that that partial read is actually the default on both Windows and Posix (i.e. both ReadFile and read() will read up to the number of bytes specified). So a one-syscall implementation for fread would have been easier than multiple calls, and certainly would be standard compliant.

The dd example isn't comparable because dd is much lower level, and you really are specifying how the syscalls should be made.

Also you need to be careful what you read/write. In some cases.

As many examples out there use int/char etc to show how to use the thing. But if you switch to structs that fwrite can totally burn you if you use the sizeof call. As the sizeof a struct can vary between platforms and compilers. Depending on packing. Then endianness can sometimes mess you up. If you are reading/writing for yourself you can get away with a lot. But if you are trying to interop then you have to be wildly careful what you do.

fwrite is another one where people will do one byte at a time (same up to for the windows version). Bash out a loop, use the sizeof for the input to the for loop. copy and paste just doing 1 byte and you can easily end up here. One program I added a cache in front of the thing so it would always write on disk block boundaries and then come back for more. I started off with just packed struct sizes but the perf was just 'ok'. The file block boundary thing really made it fast. Not all OS's have a readahead/write buffer behind that call so perf can vary.

It is honestly such an easy mistake to make. As many of the examples/docs do not really show you why/how to use both of those calls in the way needed. You sort of have to stumble into it and work it out.

Once you see it you know. But until then you do not really notice if it is 'working'.

Are you sure you're not thinking of raw read() / write() (the operating systems calls) rather than fread() and fwrite() (the C standard library functions)? fread and fwrite already have a cache, so repeated calls won't make lots of OS calls.

Or, at least, they shouldn't! Clearly OP's implementation was a counterexample (it made lots of OS calls just for a single fread call).

Unfortunately not all of them. It depends on the device you are using, and the storage device, and the kernel, and the CRT you are using. The process I was using went from like 20-30 seconds to run to less than a second once I put a cache in front of it. Current implementations may have that cache. I would look first and see what they are doing. At the time I was working with about 6 different CRT's of varying age and quality. Some systems you can turn it on and off per device, or global, or per call depending on flags passed in. Really it comes down to reading the docs (probably right), and testing it out (empirical evnidence). That project I learned to not trust the c runtime libraries. But to verify what they are doing and re-read the docs and make sure I am even using the thing correctly vs what is written in the code and my assumptions.

Another possibility for why it needs to be done that way is dealing with error conditions.

I've not looked at the code (or even the man pages) and it is a long time since I touched anything that low level, so this might be completely wrong, but if there is an error before the next 64KiB (including just hitting EOF) then the semantics could be different. Asking for 1x64KiB I would expect to just error as there aren't the requested number of bytes. Asking for 64Ki lots of 1 byte might simple error just the same, or it might at least populate the buffer with what it can read, or if the meaning of 1,65536 is actually “up to 64Ki lots of 1B” then it would populate the buffer as far as possible and return the amount read rather than an error condition.

If the per-byte option is slow but still fast enough, and dealing with the semantics is less faf, then people will go for that because the tiny time loss is worth the larger effort reduction. Of course this assumes the underlying system doesn't change, as with the “making local code to run as on-demand networked code” example higher in the thread which changes the relative performance characteristics of the two calling methods significantly.

dd is designed to request a certain block size from the kernel. fread is not and should just multiply the two arguments and read that many bytes, just like calloc.

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