This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man.
On the brain drain problem in particular, one way to ensure talent sticks around is to create a good environment for people to do their best work. In much of Europe, getting bureaucracy out of the way and encouraging real investment would go a long way. People leave because they can make more money and they want to be surrounded by the best people. People would trade some of that off to stick around their home countries, however if you go to California and talk to folks from e.g. NL or DE working on this stuff, they have a lot to say about innovation and working culture back home.
Both Netherlands and Sweden produce highly competent researchers. Per capita on par with any other location on the planet, including California.
This will be good for Europe as a whole and also the planet.
And yes, I do believe Europe will invest in this technology.
What a glorious day for Canada and, therefore, the world.
It was only nominally democratic, now it’s a total shit show.
Are there people legitimately brain-rotted such that they believe stuff like this?
Outside of the constant flow of "hey guys, look at the latest dumb thing Trump did" coming from entertainment outfits posing as news, what are we even talking about? Life goes on as normal for the Americans. You are way too online.
The US is no longer looked at as a superpower, it just surrendered to a regional power and will pay $300B USD in tribute.
But for Trump and his cronies life certainly has improved.
But the damage is done and we are witnessing the decline and destruction of the worlds greatest Empire of all time.
Up until the second Trump presidency, most of us outside the USA had basically the same opinion as we had before. Pretty messed up politics , but strong economy and strong military.
The first minor dip was with Trumps first presidency. But shit went downhill fast with his second, unfettered reign when MAGA took total control over the Republican Party.
Now it is 110% clear that the American Dream is dead and buried, except for the well connected wealthy, and your military was state of the art, two decades ago.
The 21st century belongs to China and Europe.
It was clear he was unfit to be a president, but he was mostly golfing.
We call this confirmation bias.
I doubt any president would really be able to golf for much of his time. Though you can believe what you'd like. I would love to find evidence for this belief though, where do I Look?
Guess which country blocked access to a SOTA model based on national security bullshit.
It’s a response to the actually-nationalist practice of the United States. I can understand why it might feel different from California, but things are a bit scary over here right now.
That is why people lament at idea of being completely dependent on Russian gas, US tech or Chinese manufacturing.
Your argument would suggest the EU developing a European model would be a better direction. A heavy-weight competitor would help advance the field after all.
> getting bureaucracy out of the way and encouraging real investment
I don't think this is really about regulation - it's about network effects. The only way to compete with strong network-effects is to create your own.
> This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech
Nationalism breeds nationalism and it is the fundamental reason European states feel the need to build their own expertise. Can you imagine if your country was subject to the whims of an aspiring dictator?
It's a direct response to the MAGA / America First attitude of the American electorate.
The EU was build on the principles of collaboration, to overcome the nationalistic impulses. Free trade and free movement of people, no need for everyone to replicate what everyone else is doing. Preventing individual nation states from favoring and supporting their home grown firms over other EU firms is a central legal principle.
But this only works if it is reciprocal. And ideally if the partners are roughly on the same level. When you force developing nations in trade deals to not protect local firms, you are also preventing them from moving up the value chain and locking them into the position of "raw material providers".
When trading with China we know that China has absolutely no qualms supporting its strategic industries with a truck load of subsidies. And it is preventing foreign firms from investing and selling on the domestic market.
For the longest time the US was considered a safe partner though. Sure, plenty of disagreements in the details, but in principle someone whom you can rely on. That idea has been decisevly dismantled over the last 10ish years. The US unilaterally cut of the EMails of EU courts. The US has unilaterally decided that EU partners cannot use Fable/Mythos.
The only reasonable reaction is to make sure that the EU can maintain and create its own critical infrastructure.
And in response NL should weaponize ASML for example. Then both sides would naturally back down. Specialization is the most efficient way of developing tech civilization.
Whereis everybody building their own mediocre versions would be repeating Russia in its attempt to make its own national messenger - a lot of government money sunk, yet people are still using Telegram/etc.
(despite the name, i am not dutch)
Some close or far ancestor was though. :'-)
yep, basically. 3rd one down https://www.howtopronounce.com/dijksterhuis
the story behind it: i was looking for a name to write music under. and i was reading academic papers about subliminal messaging in music and stuff. i came across a paper where they seemed to be absolutely ripping into this "dijksterhuis" guy's previous paper. felt bad for him. felt like he was an underdog. so i ran with that name.
This sounds great but doesn't really make any sense. What skeptics are saying is there should be a pan-EU effort to build frontier models, rather than one-off toy models built by each country as a box-ticking exercise.
"We built the EU as a powerful supranational organization, so logically the EU's response to a great power challenge in the realm that may well define the 21st century is gonna be to shatter its efforts into 27 useless pieces, because Trump bad" is just absolutely ridiculous and will not lead to anything good. Be the change you want to see, etc.
If an individual country trains a language model, it's not ambitious enough. If we try to do one for the whole EU they will say it takes too long (you need to get all countries on board, you see). If the EU announces it by executive decision it's a dictatorship and government driven economic intervention, if a EU company does it they'll say it's not good enough.
You can't win with these people. In my opinion, you shouldn't even try to convince them.
The fact they aren’t points to the moribund nature of things in the EU tech space. Both China and America are doing this although with very different approaches.
These people can then fund for-profit companies once they have a promising approach and bring in private investment
These people can then fund for-profit companies once they have a promising approach and bring in private investment.
As for nationalism, like it or not, this is a govt sponsored effort, and governments and universities are funded by the public of specific nations
> Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources.
Yeah, why is Anthropic making their own mediocre models, if they could just pool their resources with OpenAI, that makes no sense.
Assuming us Europeans finally get our act together, I think it is better for our long-term future (and the ethical problems) if we manage to get a baseline of training input and data ourselves, from scratch, with everything being ethically sourced.
Oh and, while we're at it, the EU has 24 official languages plus a host of minority languages. Most LLMs focus on the English, German, French and Chinese languages, but everything else is... left behind at best. An European model with actual funding and proper data sources might be able to significantly reduce that.
[1] https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/6245677
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/16/techscape...
Has a formal lawsuit been brought to bear? Given, Anthropic & OpenAI are being dragged through courts for copyright violation (or stealing, as you'd call it, if the companies involved were culturally Chinese) by newspapers, publishing houses etc; one'd think they'd pass on some of that medicine to Alibaba, which does have business entities registered in the US.
Does that mean that Chinese models are the "Robin Hood"s of the AI era?
...and "good guys" the American labs were caught stealing from authors all over the world[1].
[1]: www.npr.org/2025/09/05/g-s1-87367/anthropic-authors-settlement-pirated-chatbot-training-material
Wow. This image of Anthropic employees ripping books apart to use them to train models is a powerful one, seems like an inflection point in the history of information.
Let’s just gloss over the monstrous amount of copyrighted and pirated material the American labs trained on. China bad. American good. Some cultural cliches never change.
that is not true, so please read before make an opinion. The French Mistral project shipped seven+ years ago with 140 languages for example.. language translation was the first LLM task from 2015
Yeah China and US models have baises but so will any model. The biases do not get in the way of the product though. You don't open those models just to ask for what happened in Taianaman square or if Taiwan is a state. You dont ask ChatGPT to generate CASM. But they are very good at the tasks you actually expect from a LLM. If you fail at that, nobody will use your model no matter how "ethically sourced" a colonizer-based entity like Europe made it.
The attempt is laughable, buy every country should at least try to keep up with frontier technology, even if they fail massively or are massively underfunded.
On the other hand, it's arguably wasteful for an incompetent govt to do something like this, since the money will almost certainly not be well spent. It will just go to people good with MS Word. That's the likely failure mode for such NL innovation projects. The actual solution is a culture shift, but that is much harder if not impossible to pull off and requires decades. But we (NL people and govt) should work towards that. Most likely all these govt led innovation attempts are a sad waste of tax money.
I don’t want Europe to model itself on the US, whatever the economic gain. Hopefully we are large enough to find a third way between China and the US.
We do still have to be strategic at the world stage though, or we'll be humiliated and pay dearly.
I'm pretty sure no county taking a stab at making their own model for sovereignty purposes will let "proper licensing" stand in their way.
Current frontier models (closed and open) are already really good at small languages too. I use them in Finnish sometimes, and the language is immaculate. They underestand even somewhat obscure dialects. Multilinguality seems to be a mostly solved problem.
How do people not know about it and keep making stuff from scratch?
Specifically, we discard documents shorter than 200 characters (Xue et al., 2021a), and any page containing the phrase “lorem ipsum,” the word “javascript,” or curly brackets (Raffel et al., 2023)....
It is quite surprising/funny to see all documents with javascript removed.
1. Free of controversy like unlicensed training materials
2. Free of exploitative rlfh loops by people in low-wages countries
3. The leasons learned (and published) from going through the entire training process on "European" hardware: "AI factories" (the term for Slurm HPC/HTC systems with lots of heavy GPU nodes, heavily subsidized by our government [0])
1 and 2 are strong counter-LLM arguments at the moment, and hold back some groups of potential users. Another is energy/water use, so going for maximum green energy would be a nice boon as well. 3 is something I consider to be highly useful for our European identity and "way of the ninja" (for you Naruto fans out there).
but in general, yes, as someone who is vehemently anti-ai GPT-NL has piqued my interest specifically because of the ethical protections / measures they're talking about. question is whether they stick to it.
yes but a sovereign can allocate some resources and a few people to stay in the loop from a first principles level. No need to wait for a rug pull.
Of course, it can not compete with the frontier labs. But good to have researchers and professors "in-house". LLMs are here for the long-term.
I'm not in this field, but I think we already have them. Probably the main difference is that we have most or all of them in academia and next to none insode private companies. But we do have them, and they could start working for private companies if the market moves in that direction in the EU as well
You take current version and build on top of it. You have the weights.
You might not get some n+1 version at some point but the n version you will have will be still most likely much better than whatever you come up with burning good will money of people believing in „sovereignty”.
You are not getting ahead in this game by being „true to your local values” capital expenditure is insane in this game.
I am speaking from very practical point of view. English and whatever frontier models are trained on is lingua Franca of software/tech/science currently - you don’t want to make massive changes because just exactly like you wrote model will unlearn a lot.
Current models translate easily between the languages.
So from my point of view even if we as a smaller country will have N-2 model that we slightly fine tune or just give it a harness with national RAG it will be better than wasting money on training a model from scratch only on „texts in country own language „ because that is loosing proposition. It’s usefulness is going to be really limited compared to model trained on body of knowledge in English.
It is a lot like company CEO thinking they have to „train AI model” for their company on their company materials - well no, you just make RAG and eventually fine tune some models, give access to dat, give access to MCP.
Because even if you are F1000 company you don’t have resources to train your own generic model, as a nation there is no that have resources to train „national model” on par with frontier labs.
Its purpose is not to become some kind of OpenAI or global foundation offering services/tools on that scale.
There is a lot of critisism on this project, not invalid, but mostly based in lack of understanding of what the goals are of the organization as well as the people building the thing.
The people building it, are well aware of how it will be less capable than other LLMs on a general reasoning aspect, not only due to having actually purchased _all_ licensed data that has been used as inputs. Not being a multi billion dollar corporation, this means having very little data and should be an obvious signal to observers that it has not the goal to outdo other models.
In my opinion (personal) its a project that has a learning and demonstration value that is not 'look how well our model performs against others', but still offers value.
(Of course states can ignore copyright in a legally polite manner, such as asserting that training on all published material in the National Library is fair game)