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Comment by redad | Hacker News Reader

My father has substance abuse problems too (alcohol dependency for 20 years) and it has destroyed his relationship with my siblings and my mother, he's going to lose what little he has left very soon and I genuinely fear he's going to do something very similar to what is mentioned here. I am the only child that will talk to him without contempt and I have long since left home. He lost his own father very recently and that pushed him deeper.

What do I do? How do you deal with a situation like this?

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I dated a woman from a family like this. Her dad was in Vietnam and his squad was ambushed and he managed to find a hiding place from which he was able to witness the entire rest of his squad murdered in cold blood. 3 days later he got the balls to leave his hiding spot and the alcoholism began when he got home after being discharged. Classic PTSD case.

Your dad needs to see a counselor to help treat the alcoholism and a therapist to try to eliminate any underlying psychological issues that might be feeding into the alcoholism if there are any.

My uncle died of essentially alcoholism.

You have the right to tell your dad, dead in the eye, that you fear for his life and that he does not have to continue this downward spiral. He will need to summon a will in order to beat it, though. It might help to also remove him from the environments that contribute to his problem, such as moving to a dry town.

It still amazes me that I used to drink more (was always moderate) but really tapered off lately for multiple reasons (most related to health) without much difficulty at all, yet some people get completely addicted to this thing. (I have nearly all German and Czech ancestry which might help.) Yet there is a game called WoW that I can't seem to tear myself completely away from, and there is a woman on this planet that is impossible for me to not have amazing sex with when alone (she shares the same vulnerability) who I unfortunately cannot be anywhere near anymore because we are not right for each other and must focus on other people...

You should probably read the original post again...

AA's founder originally believed that LSD had potential to cure substance abuse, and although he later stepped away from that belief to make religion a bigger aspect of it, researchers believe that it is far more likely to help than even AA itself. There was additional information (along with personal experiences) in a recent Reddit TIL that may be of interest to you - http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/14mpow/til_bi...

If that's an option you think he'd try out, perhaps there's a facility nearby that could help.

Edit: If you're going to downvote, do so because something is legitimately wrong and prove otherwise, not because you don't agree with it. This topic is a big deal and my response is equally as serious.

I won't argue the science, since you're likely correct, but taking one substance to counter the effects of another doesn't do anything to address the root cause of the problem.

It's no use curing alcoholism only to have it replaced by gambling, drugs or sex.

The issue is that the addiction is used as a crutch to avoid dealing with the real problem. Until you deal with that real problem - and some of them are extremely difficult to "deal" with, so I'm not trying to downplay this - you will not really be "cured".

Part of why it is so effective is because the perspective changes it induces not only lessens the desire to divulge, but changes the outlook you have on life that is causing you to do it in the first place. It's not a "cure" rather than a means to get people to look at their life differently, which is what motivates them to go an opposite direction.

While they can provide a social outlet for support, I don't think that AA or religion can have such an immediately life-altering impact on someone as much as they, themselves, can.

Sure, but then you need to take LSD to maintain that state. Once you remove that actor, the person rewires to think the way they did before.

That's my issue.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with these types of experiences. The entire point is that it permanently changes your outlook (for the better) after only a few uses, give or take per person. Not to get all stereotypical answer, but Steve Jobs attributes a single trip to the vision he maintained for the rest of his life.

And even if that were the case, what's the difference between taking a dose of LSD every three months and taking an over-the-counter every single day for the rest of your life, particularly when -- as with the recent case with Wellbutrin XL -- the FDA is approving things that do more harm than good because they're literally not doing any research on them?

I'm in no way qualified to give you a professional answer, but from a human perspective, I'd start by talking to him and expressing the very fears you just described. Make him understand that it concerns you, and that you're there for him should he ever feel that inclination. Just being able to talk about things with other people can be a tremendous help when dealing with stressful situations. Make sure he understands that he's not completely alone.

That's a very good-spirited answer, but not a very realistic one, I am afraid. Most of the people who exhibit problems of that kind ARE talked to; their parents, children, friends etc are, on average, truly caring and do attempt to help. The sad truth is - a lot of people who gave up on 'life' have damn good reasons to have done so. A lot of them would laugh at you if you try to 'talk' to them, providing they have some laugh left in them --- because most of them actually did hear it all already, and it just wasn't enough. Another sad truth is: substance abuse actually does solve a lot of problems, just not in a "socially acceptable way". But, well - a lot of people don't care about what's "socially acceptable".

Short answer is - you don't, really. There's very little one can do to help a grown-up person with a history of substance abuse. Unless you believe in God: but the efficacy of that approach is, clearly, impossible to scientifically verify.

"Unless you believe in God"

If only the belief in God sincerely caused a difference in substance abuse, I'd be endorsing religiosity for its own sake!

Of course, I'm sure you're referencing the will of God, but considering how many sincere faithful have their struggles with physical addiction, the belief alone is not enough :(

There are some indicators that it does make a difference; too lazy to dig those up, but it should not be surprising that adhering to some religious doctrine that discourages activity X should have some effect on reducing the frequency of X abuse among the adherents (not just the reported numbers, but actual values too).

However, what I wanted to say is more like - if you don't have a crane, yet need to lift an X-wing fighter from the bottom of the swamp, you have to use the Force. Nothing else will suffice. Basically, both the damage caused by substance abuse, and, more importantly, the deeper reasons people stick to it, are so huge, you need to pray for a miracle (and people who believe in God often do).

On the other hand - when you strongly discourage something and decide to make doing it wrong/immoral, you also make it very taboo and stigmatized to talk about, which can be incredibly dangerous.

This is very obvious with illegal drug use and sex, problems related to them (drug addiction and unwanted pregnancies/STDs) are much higher in places where it is strongly discouraged, stigmatized and hard to talk about.

There are a lot of sad stories where people who knew they had a drug problem didn't dare seeking help/talking about it in fear of either the law or negative reactions from the people around them.

Wrong/lack of information about safety is also a huge issue due to making stuff immoral and taboo, millions of people in Africa have died and are currently suffering because of the way extramarital sex and condom use have been (and still are) handled and talked about.

Personally I think complete openness instead of moralization/stigmatization is a much better solution to deal with difficult issues. Granted, I'm a very socially liberal guy, but I think most evidence is pointing to the fact that information and sympathy is leading to more desirable social outcomes than repression and stigmatization.

For example, let's take something extremely controversial as pedophilia. The vast majority of society is of the understandable opinion that being a pedophile is immoral, often downright evil. People unfortunately don't realize how extremely important the different between simply being a pedophile (having sexual thoughts about children) and actually committing such acts are.

I think even something as pedophilia should be freely discussed and that pedophiles should be offered rational stigma-free ways to deal with their sexuality in ways that won't hurt children instead of being treated like scum by society. The way we deal with the issue today is hurting everyone involved - both the pedophiles and children.

A ton of people undoubtedly disagrees with me - and that's understandable from an emotion point of view. However - I've never seen any research or statistics actually indicating that punishing people for their problems (either directly through the law or through stigma) leads more significant positive societal outcomes than helping and sympathizing people with their problems does.

Alcoholics Anonymous famously has "turning your life over to a higher power" as one of their 12 steps. They also provide a very open community. They seem to have some success.

AA is actually about exactly what I'm talking about, they're about talking openly about your problems and receiving sympathy from others who either have similar issues or have overcome them without fear of being judged or looked down upon from others.

That being said I think scientific evidence-based solutions are generally a better option than AA. Don't get me wrong - I'm not disputing that AA certainly has helped a lot of people - but the statistics aren't looking great either.

"They seem to have some success"

The rate of preventing relapses is (as far as I'm aware) no greater than those who attempt to quit without the steps.

Oh, of course. Far too many people don't realize that religion (in general, and in the "Bible belt" case, Christianity in particular) should be completely orthogonal to such concerns as science and education, and truths revealed therein. There's no inherent conflict, of course; but people from both sides are guilty of acting as if there's conflict. Unfortunately for religious people, they have started it first in ages past, when religion was a standard, and so now they tend to have harder time learning the error of their ways.

"people from both sides are guilty of acting as if there's conflict."

Angsty atheists claiming there are no "true" Christians who believe in evolution or who are evolutionary biologists by trade are obnoxious, but more harmless than those who wedge religion into science classes.

The efficacy of any approach for dealing with substance abuse can be investigated scientifically: try it, and compare with a control group, trying to control for as many variables as you can. If it creates a significant difference, then something is probably going on. If there's no significant difference, then it probably doesn't work. Absence of evidence is, of course, evidence of absence.

None of this changes when the approach in question involves hypothetical supernatural intervention.

Having been in a similar situation as Notch, also ending in a very similar way, all advice I can give is to make the best of the time you have and don't waste it on contempt and hate. I wish that I had been able to have a more understanding attitude than I did.

In order to help your addicted father you should consider first focusing on yourself. The stress and guilt of having an addicted loved one can affect your own mental health. Speak to an addiction specialist, they can help you formulate appropriate actions in dealing with your father, perhaps an intervention, perhaps something else. Al-Anon (http://al-anon.alateen.org/) is a good resource.

This is a very good point. At one point in time I went to a therapist to discuss my family member's alcoholism in an attempt to get them help. The therapist gave me some good advice for my family member but also recommended that I seek therapy of my own. I did so for over half a year and it helped me work through issues relating to my relationship with my family member but also some anxiety issues of my own. If you are uncomfortable with the group setting of al-anon (as I was), you should really look into one-on-one counseling.

1) Try and fix him. I know this is generally thought of as a bad idea, but I think it will be important for you to know that you did everything within your power for him in the event that something bad happens. When (adult) children lose a parent, the ones that mourn the loudest are typically the ones that were not taking care of the parent in their decline. The ones that support them in their declining years get to meet the sad day knowing they did everything they could for their loved one. I think this brings comfort by removing any guilt that someone might have.

2) If recovery is not an option, accept it. If you have run through all the reasonable things to be done to help your father from the outside, there is nothing left for you to do to fix him. Accept him for all his good characteristics and bad, and simply show him love.

3) Wait. Even if you were unable to fix him, he still might come around on his own, which is most likely what needs to happen anyways.

Someone with a substance abuse problem is the only person that can tackle that issue. Attending alchoholics anonymous or narcotics anonymous (or a similar 12-step style program) can be a start, and it is really helpful if said person attends therapy with a professional of some form outside of those kinds of programs (church staff don't count, this absolutely should be a trained therapist, psychologist, etc). Outside of that, there isn't anything you can do. It should be noted that not talking to someone with a substance abuse problems is a wholly legitimate thing to do, as you aren't required to put yourself in situations that are harmful to your own mental and physical well being.

Feel free to email me at jevinsweval@gmail.com if you (or anyone else) would like to chat. I grew up with an alcoholic family member who is thankfully sober for almost two years now after 20 years of drinking. There is no single answer but there is hope.

I was once in your exact same situation. If you want to talk privately let me know. The extent of the possibilities of your actions are merely going to be within the confines of guidance, nothing you do will be a magic bullet. It'll take time, it'll take effort, but it's possible to recover. Your father has to be the one to take actions to fix the situation.

Disclaimer: This is my own personal experience and opinion. I've dealt with substance abuse issues for many years and I've known several people for whom substance abuse exacted the ultimate toll.

The short of it: There are no reliable solutions. There are no good answers.

People with depression and substance abuse issues don't think the way non abusers do. They know what they're doing is wrong and that it could lead to death or going further down the spiral, but their ability to rationalize their behavior is all powerful. It has nothing to do with will power or motivation. There's something wired differently in the brain.

Medication, AA, NA, inpatient treatment, religion are all good things to try. Sometimes one of them sticks. I wish you the best of luck. The only advice I can give is this: If something bad happens with your father, it is not your fault. There is nothing you can do to change his behavior. All you can do is be supportive if he recognizes the need to make a change.

This is actually really good information. Above all else, no one can "make it right" except for the person with the substance abuse problem.

I've spent years trying to put my alcoholic mother into this program or that group. I've even gone so far as to give myself depression issues over the situation. But, at the end of the day, she's the only that can decide to make the situation better and do something about it. Today, the only thing I can do is make my life better, even if it means cutting ties with her as she becomes more unresponsive. It's an absolutely brutal hurdle to get over, but it's the absolute truth.

This. What helped me is to see the good person behind the illness and separate that him or her from the illness. During bad moment, it will affect you less (it's the illness, not that soul that is affected by it), during good moments it is easier to connect to that person.

Also, if someone has a severe mental illness that cannot be cured or properly medicated, and has young children, protect them if it is within your power. Every child has the right (and need) to grow up in a safe environment.

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