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Comment by albatross79 | Hacker News Reader

Being able to work remotely is like being sentenced to prison and then finding a get-out-of-jail-free card.

I always strive to do my best at work and make a good impression. But I have absolutely 0 interest in the product, the mission, the culture, the personal or collective aspirations of owners, shareholders, leaders or "leadership", or who they are as people. I generally like my coworkers and we get along, but that's not worth a 2 hour round trip in the car, or using a public washroom, or eating in a cafeteria, or sitting uncomfortably at a desk all day, or listening to everyone's boring stories.

The best part though, is no team building nonsense, no company BBQs or pizza days, no casual Fridays, no boss dropping in for a one on one, no psychos trying to get the energy level up with a "LETS GOOOO TEAM!!"

Just doing a good job for good pay and being treated like an adult. I didn't know working could be like this when I was starting out.

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I'm glad you work remote because to be candid you sound like a miserable person to be stuck in an office with.

It's like being taken hostage with people who are pretending to like it. Meanwhile some of them have personal lives so bad or they're so afraid of being alone that they genuinely do like it.

Why so cynical? Some of my best friends and favorite people are people who I initially met as random coworkers.

I'm sure there are great friendships among slaves and prisoners too, that doesn't mean you should be thankful to be one.

Maybe being freed from the slave mindset is the reason you haven't had the same. Maybe.

You can schlep to the office every day and contort yourself into a freedom mindset and I'll work remote with my natural mindset. We can both be happy.

I have a remote job. I get to have this one because I made contacts at a previous job. Good luck in the job market correction.

me too, but its the vast minority of all companies i have been in the past 35 years. i don't want to sit in a room or even building with the rest of the drones of whom i have no clue what they are doing there expect burning money and wasting time of others.

but sure there are enough exceptions to turn up once in a blue moon to have drinks with the new peeps who seem nice on slack.

Whats cynical about it? You work with people who you have befriended, probably because you have the sort of personality where that works.

Not everyone is like that. It's not cynicism but a fact of life that some people do not get on with people you find in tech companies, IT departments, offices, etc or do not enjoy the environment.

You should examine your own narrow view of this and realize that there are many types of people out there other than people like you. That someone else experiences life in a different way isn't a personal failing.

My view is narrow, yet you're siding with OP who is categorically defining team building activities, company BBQs, pizza days, etc as nonsense? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> Meanwhile some of them have personal lives so bad or they're so afraid of being alone that they genuinely do like it.

One of the definitions of cynical is "bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic". I'm not trying to argue that my way is the only way, I'm just pointing out that some people (me) have fulfilling personal lives AND enjoy chit-chatting with coworkers in-person sometimes.

I think we can all agree that remote work is great for some people. And we should be able to agree that some people genuinely enjoy things about working in an office too.

You just don’t require 40 weeks in an office to make friends. You can, and should, go to social gatherings outside of work. Including ones where you’re exclusively surrounded by complete strangers.

Friendships often form out of shared experiences. Work is one kind of shared experience. So is joining a club, or going to a concert.

I think a lot of people don’t do those things, because they’re so tired from work. Which is understandable, but then you have to make friends at work. And that’s really not ideal.

I think your comment is an example of why lots of people prefer to work remotely: the 'enforced fun' of it all.

Why is it a problem for you that they don't enjoy eating in canteens? Why does working with you mean signing up to be your best friend?

This right here is the crux of the argument.

WFH people want to do work, take meetings, and just overall get things done. Sure they also want to be at home so they can use a 15 min break between meetings to start laundry.

RTO people want to do work, take meetings, and overall get things done while there are others around them working. RTO people need other people around them constantly.

This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

I like both. What do we do now?

You do what you want without forcing others to do what you want.

It’s pretty simple, in my opinion.

Easier said than done if doing what I have want is only hiring office workers, then suddenly the wfh people aren't happy.

They want both the specific job and the ability to work from home.

There is a zero sum element to it.

The best solution is for workplaces to be up front and consistent in their policies and let people select in or out.

You stop purposefully ignoring the scenario just to pick a fight.

I'm not convinced that people who want to work from home are magically motivated differently by work and to do work than others... They're human, better and worse, like everyone else.

its not magic its just some nature and nurture. i like wfh bc most of my relationships growing up were distracting troublemakers and slackers. when i had time to myself i noticed i actually accomplished things and then when i worked with others i ended up doing their work too

other people grew up with healthy, cooperative relationships

That's how I know that all the people who like RTO are just lying to force everyone back to office. Since the lack of loud noises, interruptions, distractions etc. make me much more productive in HO, the same must be true for everyone else.

I prefer working from an office and I also work on the subway and at home. I actually prefer people _do not_ watch me work. I am introverted, but there are benefits to working in person that aren't replaceable over Zoom. (There are also trade-offs!)

Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone? It's so mysterious to me. Not everyone who wants to WFH or RTO have the same needs, perspectives, trade-offs, living situations, working styles, etc. The world has nuance.

> Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone

Without unsolicited personal opinions, there wouldn't be much conversation. And what then, have only people state verifiable truths? Only permit the exchange of pure fact?

Not speaking in hard generalities.

> WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

This is just not true. It makes a sweeping statement about two groups of people with certain preferences, then assertions about how they work / what they want.

People can express opinions, while investigating (or at least leaving room for) nuance.

My company just had an RTO announcement and I kid you not the head of HR said “well I like working from the office” as if that’s a reason why we should as well.

> This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

If you work from home and I work from the office, you're forcing me to collaborate with you using remote tools, which is just remote work with a longer commute. In this sense, (some) WFHers are only happy when they force RTOers into Microsoft Teams.

Of course, there's a much better compromise available to us. I could be on an in-office team with others like me, you could be on a WFH team with others like you, and we'd all be happy.

Many workplaces are global. Even when I’m in the office, I’m still on Teams meetings all day long.

Your conclusion is exactly my point. People should work on teams that fit their work habits. Where that falls down is when management hires for WFH but then asks those workers to RTO.

> WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

You're completely leaving out that WFHers are forcing the RTOers to work in a completely different (and in my opinion worse) way to accommodate the WFHers.

> WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

Or RTOers want to be able to collaborate with their co-workers while WFHers want to sneak away to do laundry and make it impossible to communicate with them in an efficient manner? I don't need them around just to work, I need them around so that I can have a dialogue with them, instead of sending a message that may or may not be answered this week because I have no idea if they are even "at work". I'm exaggerating, but I hope you were too.

First, RTOers can work with other RTOers, right? Or are you suggesting RTOers can’t do their job unless everyone is in the office? Because that is the exact problem I’m describing.

Second, if WFHers aren’t available and responsive, they should be put on a PIP and then let go if they don’t improve. WFH is not an excuse to not work. With my team, everyone responds quickly. If they don’t, they don’t last very long.

> WFH people want to do work

Debatable. They take issue with getting dressed and acting appropriately in an office, I can't imagine they're particularly hard working people given a commute is a hard no for them. You'll complain you haven't got time to do the work next

And if you're job can be done without anyone needing to speak to you, or you to them, it's probably not that important and ripe for AI to take off your hands, so enjoy it while you can autist

The water cooler hero over here, when's the next pizza lunch boss?

I’ve witnessed it first hand, WAY more work gets done when people WFH than in the office. The constant stop bus, or coffee breaks, or “let’s walk over to the other building for this meeting” taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time.

The WFH team I manage is one of the most capable and hardest working teams I’ve ever been on. You can take that outdated attitude elsewhere, thank you.

We collaborate all day long on teams. Various work focused and non work focused chats are constantly happening.

> taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time.

I love how you couldn't think of an example of work other than a teams meeting lol is that all you do WFH then?

What are you doing exactly? Building railroads? Tech is meetings and coding.

Yes. I work in tech and I'm either doing focused work or in meetings. This is the case regardless of in office or at home.

Ive also witnessed this first hand and had the opposite experience. A significant number of WFH employees were not doing the work expected of them. Yes this is a management issue, but many companies have crappy management.

Do miserable people not deserve to make a living? Companies should be able to accommodate their disabilities by making sure they are not around others who may be affected by their presence.

Unreasonable accommodation. Fire them.

Being miserable is now a disability? Seriously?

That reminds me of a sign I saw in a handicapped parking spot: "Being an asshole is not a disability".

Misery is a symptom of depression, which is classified as a disability.

Coughing is a symptom of many things, yet you cannot conclude I have cancer from a cough.

I should know better than to make statements in dumb topics like this. It's like dipping a net into a pool and just filtering out weird takes like this one.

Why is it a weird take?

Honestly I framed this poorly, sorry. I wasn't arguing for accommodating all miserable people but my comment implied an extreme position I don't believe.

Thanks, I also took it in the least charitable way - which also wasn't fair. Thanks for being cool.

People who feel they need to enjoy the company of their co-workers in any way are the insufferable ones. Do you need something work related from me? Great! I can probably help. Otherwise leave me the fuck alone. Why? Because dealing with the weird, annoying reactions of the 99.999999999% of the population I do not get on with becomes very tiresome very quickly.

Wow, it's a good thing you work from home. We don't want you roaming around in polite society!

Pitching yourself as a machine that takes in requirements and spits out work is a daring proposition in today's technological environment.

Nothing they said suggested they'd be disruptive.

If someone does their work properly, and you're upset at their lack of sociability, you're the problem.

What a leap of judgement

you sound like a miserable person to be stuck in an office with

How much extra do you get paid to drink the corporate koolaid? I ask this because some of the most miserable people I know were the kind of people that were all-in on serving the corporation at all costs only for it to burn through everything else in their life, especially when they get laid off.

Miserable because we don’t enjoy fake company bullshit like team building lunches and dumbass nontechnical managers that know less than we do but get paid more? Have fun drinking that company koolaid.

I agree 100%, you get paid to do your job, anything above this is charity to the shareholders/executives/managers. I work as a contractor so get paid for days I work, I've watched permanent staff who were perfect corporate bots get the boot while I stayed as I focused on the work.

Everyone always seems to assume everyone else is a corporate bot and they are the only true mercenary just working for the money.

I’ve seen so many contractors who think they’re so smart for being contractors and not loyal to any kind of company… turns out they do the same shit an employee does just gets paid 5x less, and when they’re booted no one really gives gives a shit about them. Okay…

I get paid 3x more, also employees also get booted and no one cares after about 2 hours.

I was a contractor for 14 years, and I kept running into people like you that didn't realize I got paid a lot MORE to come in and fix the problems that the full timers couldn't.

Reminds me of the folks I tell I work in "IT", and they think I fix printers all day.

> Reminds me of the folks I tell I work in "IT", and they think I fix printers all day.

Nah you also come on comment sections to brag about a wage you got decades ago. Times have changed old man

The point is that some people didn't realize contracting was a step up, not a step down.

But sure, take offence and presume I'm bragging. I imagine you're a lot of fun to be around.

I don't know why country you live in, but in mine contractors get paid about 2x more than employees. They get less security and benefits of course.

Our contractors are cheap laborers.

> I generally like my coworkers and we get along, but that's not worth a 2 hour round trip in the car

How can you be fine with having 0 interest in a job but commuting is some kind of deal breaker? You managed to man up about the rest of the stuff but not the commute?

No wonder America is fucked. My friend visited an office over there once and EVERY SINGLE PERSON in there was morbidly obese, single finger typing. I'm not surprised they complain about having to drive, next they'll be complaining about the actual work and how it doesn't fulfill them the peasants

I'm honestly confused by your comment, I have no idea what you are trying to say. (Is it sarcasm? Couldn't tell).

Let's say I have no interest in the job. I'm a for-profit operation; I'm in it for the money.

I work 8 hours a day for $X in pay. And it takes 2 hours in the car to get there, so it's really $X for 10 hours of my time plus some gasoline (unless I drive an electric).

Then Covid happens, and work from home becomes a real possibility. Now the deal is $X for 8 hours, not 10, because I don't have to drive to the office and back. I like that deal better, because I get two hours of my life back every day.

Now you want me to go back to the office every day, losing that two hours, for no more money? And the reason you give me is that I get to hang out with my coworkers? No, I don't like them that much.

> Now you want me to go back to the office every day, losing that two hours, for no more money?

If that's the choice probably not, but fuck me, just move or get a closer job if you hate the commute. Sounds like you live somewhere with no jobs, which is an adjacent issue, not every job is miles away.

I'm not saying it's not better than working in an office.... Clearly not having to smile, have clothes on, be polite to anyone are all benefits but a job isn't meant to fulfill you. If you had skills that were in demand youd be calling the shots, but as like me youre just a peon, you take what you can get. Wage slavery is shit full stop, why would anyone want to work for a living when there's this option called being rich and not having to lift a finger?

Complaining about the fucking commute just gets to me. Your grandparents probably worked twelve hour shifts six days a week and would get the sack for being legitimately ill, our slog doesn't even compare

Your first point makes sense, but the second part? The reason American health is so bad is that we are required to own and operate a vehicle in 99% of this country. That's what makes us obese - not having walkable environments other than in the largest cities. Having to drive to the nearest food which is almost always fast food. We are like this because we have been made slaves to our work and everything has been created to get us back to work faster.

Most of England outside London requires a car to buy anything... It's your massive portions of food and how surprisingly cheap it is compared to Europe. And maybe you have more grape drink fake shit than we do

What kind of office did your friend visit? I don't think I've seen someone point and peck type for years.

Virginia, TBF it was years ago maybe they've all slimmed down

I didn't say I have 0 interest in the job. I like the job. I said I don't care about the product, you seem to be conflating the two.

I want to frame this comment. I could have written this word for word. It's so interesting that there are people disagreeing with you. Is it fair to presume that the HN crowd majorly over-represents the pro-RTO voice or are workers really so divided on this issue?

and this is exactly why you will be seen as disposable and the first to go when layoffs happen.

personal relationships are very important, arguably more important that your raw performance.

Unless you get caught up in a big layoff where the people you have relationships with have zero input.

If you get laid off, it is your personal relationships that will help you land another good job while everyone else is fighting over the scraps that get posted online.

I've never been the first to be let go. It turns out if you do valuable work, people notice that and want to keep you around. On the other hand, when I had jobs based on a personal connection, it was almost the opposite. I was treated almost like an imposter. The conventional wisdom on this is just stupid. No one is going to keep you on just because you're a good buddy. Being useful always comes first.

people aren't rational actors. given your work passes a basic functional bar, if you are well liked, your work will be valued. if you are not liked, people will pick your work apart. these mechanisms feed back on one another but your narrative leads me to believe you /have/ forged meaningful relationships and are more well liked than you realize.

if i have to sit in an office to have job security (which is a big if as we see all the time) then i rather get thrown out. that never happened in the past almost 4 decades though: i leave because i get better offers. and never have been in an office, ever.

Hardly helpful when your company's headcount exceeds Dunbar's Number by 100x

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Lol, no.

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