Comment by ModernMech | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ModernMech | Hacker News Reader

Will be talking about this in my robotics class. Here's my current indictment of FSD, hasn't been updated in a year but I'll add this one to the list:

2016 - Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash, U.S. Says - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/business/self-driving-tes...

2016 - Tesla working on Autopilot radar changes after crash - https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/16/tesla-auto...

2017 - NTSB Issues Final Report and Comments on Fatal Tesla Autopilot Crash - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339472/a-tesla-crash-bu...

2019 - Tesla didn’t fix an Autopilot problem for three years, and now another person is dead - https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/17/18629214/tesla-autopilot-...

2021 - Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/06/technology/tesla-autopilo...

2021 - Tesla announces transition to ‘Tesla Vision’ without radar, warns of limitations at first - https://electrek.co/2021/05/25/tesla-vision-without-radar-wa...

2022 - Former Head Of Tesla AI Explains Why They’ve Removed Sensors; Others Differ - https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/10/31/former...

2022 - Tesla Dropping Radar Was a Mistake, Here is Why - https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/tesla-dropping-...

2023 - Tesla reportedly saw an uptick in crashes and mistakes after Elon Musk removed radar from its cars - https://archive.is/mL7zy

2023 - Elon Musk Overruled Tesla Engineers Who Said Removing Radar Would Be Problematic: Report - https://insideevs.com/news/658439/elon-musk-overruled-tesla-...

2023 - How Elon Musk knocked Tesla’s ‘Full Self-Driving’ off course - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/19/elon-mu...

2023 - The final 11 seconds of a fatal Tesla Autopilot crash - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2023/t...

I teach Tesla FSD as a cautionary tale of malicious business practices, how to deploy robots in the least safe way possible, and an anti-example of how to be a good engineer. It should be a crime to have as little a grasp on engineering and to have as much input as Musk does.

As an avid fsd user, your list makes me more comfortable using fsd than not. If there were more you’d parrot it around, but in the end, fsd is safer than humans at the wheel. As much as you dislike it because of Musk, fsd will continue to march forward and improve and millions will use it. You are beta testing fsd even if you don’t want to be.

> You are beta testing fsd even if you don’t want to be.

Exactly, that's precisely the wrong way to do ethical, responsible engineering. It's one thing to put your own life in the hands of a beta test, but it's another to put all of our lives at risk without our consent.

Distinguish a beta test from a learner driver or first year licensed driver. Why should I share the road with anyone who isn’t an experienced and competent driver?

Consent. We've consented to people learning to drive. Everyone is aware of those risks and they act accordingly. Often, to make other drivers aware of the driver's learning status, it's customary to affix a sticker to the car.

On the other hand, the public generally is not aware that these FSD machines are operating without critical safety equipment, and if they knew and were properly informed I'm not sure they would agree to be part of the test. I think Elon Musk knows that as well which is why he hasn't bothered to ask.

Moreover, I'm shocked and horrified by the number of people going around "beta testing" new versions of FSD. You'll see someone go to an area where a previous FSD version is known to fail just to see if the new one works. How is that a good idea at all? The last time you were here the car lurched into oncoming traffic unexpectedly and went down a one way, so let's see if it does it again, fingers crossed?

Utter recklessness, far worse than a 16 year old.

If we're using that definition of consent, it is an absolute unequivocal red herring. Roads are full of vehicles and full of drivers which, if you understood exactly what and who they are, you would absolutely refuse to consent sharing the road with. I didn’t consent to share the road with someone who failed to tighten their wheel nuts. I didn’t consent to share the road with that tourist in a rental car. I didn’t consent to sharing the road with a deer. I didn’t consent to sharing the road with Mercedes Drive Pilot or Ford BlueCruise or Mercedes SuperCruise or Nissan ProPILOT or any vehicles operated by Zoox or Waymo.

The dangerous you're talking about have been around for a long time, have been depicted in many forms over decades in all kinds of popular media media, have actually impacted people which has birthed reforms and new safety measures, and that is all part of the constant education and training the public receives.

None of that is done for FSD or tesla cars. People don't know how they work, what the dangers are, what their failure modes are, how to approach them, and no one is telling them!

If you want to lament a general lack of awareness and progressive education, then I'm fully on board. Perhaps we should require operators to pass an additional driver test to be legally permitted to supervise any L2+ system from any manufacturer. No BlueCruise or SuperCruise unless you've got the extra marking on your license.

But as far as "consent" is concerned, if you wish to use the public roads, consent necessarily means accepting the roads as a commons. This means, at minimum, accepting the presence of anything the relevant government authority deems legal.

I'm not really talking about formal education here.

> This means, at minimum, accepting the presence of anything the relevant government authority deems legal.

All that means if you have enough money you can put whatever death machines on the road you want. I don't think that's a good way to manage a road network, and will not ultimately lead to greater safety for all.

If you disagree with your government, that is something you need to take up with them.

>> Consent. We've consented to people learning to drive. Everyone is aware of those risks and they act accordingly. Often, to make other drivers aware of the driver's learning status, it's customary to affix a sticker to the car.

It's not juts customary. Some jurisdictions (probably outside the US) require a special sign meaning "new driver" to be displayed in the car for a period.

E.g. in Greece where I stay an "N" (for "νέος" or "new") must be displayed for 12 months after a driver first obtains their license provided they're 18 or over:

https://www.magentainsurance.gr/car/odigos-asfalisis/sima-n-...

(link in Greek)

Drivers who are 17 years old must display a different sign (a "Σ").

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