And this is exactly why the dating marketplace is as ugly as it is.
Just wait until you hear what women actually say amongst themselves, this dudes comments will sound like Sunday school talk.
Just wait until you hear what women actually say amongst themselves, this dudes comments will sound like Sunday school talk.
Once a girlfriend "invited" me to those conversation by giving some examples, so ..yeeessss. :-D
> Just wait until you hear what women actually say amongst themselves
1. You assumed without asking that I was male. This indicates an inherent bias on how you perceive and interact with others.
2. You assume I have a nascent understanding of how women think and feel, compared to yourself, who must be an expert on women.
3. You group all women into a single monolithic group with shared motivation and behaviors. This is textbook prejudice and misogyny.
4. You claim that women are even more misandrist than men are misogynist, implying a justification for OP's and your own misogynistic perspective. In actuality, you're only further expressing the depths of your own misogynistic attitude towards women.
5. You claim to know what they say amongst themselves while implying I don't have the same knowledge; Are you a woman? Or do you have hidden cameras on women? How else could you have possibly ordained this forbidden knowledge?
5. My partner, a woman, does not think or act the way you described. She does not engage in overt misandry with her friends.
6. I have encountered plenty of extremely misogynistic and legitimately creepy/abusive attitudes towards women at "Sunday school" and while receiving religious education. Every one of the many dozens of churches I've been to have had extreme misogynistic undertones, and often brazen overtones. If you are trying to establish a basis for what isn't misogyny, you couldn't have picked a worse target.
7. "But I'm not the only one who does it" has never, ever, ever been an excuse for prejudice.
8. Dating "marketplace"? What are you even talking about? Apps? Websites? Dating in general? I am not conventionally attractive by modern society's standards, I'm overweight, and outspoken. I have not had issues finding or attracting women. Determining long-term compatibility is much more difficult, but a lack of vanity or a misogynistic outlook was never the problem.
My advice? Touch grass, ask a woman what she actually thinks, and listen. You clearly are not currently in a position to give others advice on women; you are in need of advice.
Males are so used to holding all the cards and having everyone do their bidding that women having self-agency and making decisions feel like emasculating humiliations and an attack on the bases of masculinity.
They won't listen because they know what's at stake.
Of course I know them. It's me! (joshing)
Don't take it as an attack on you, by the way. But we have to recognize one of the biggest roots of the problems facing the world today.
So for me, I understand and support the distinction you're making about how resistance to oppressive institutions is not hate or violence, "misandry isn't real" just doesn't tell enough of the story. The type of misandry I'm speaking of isn't systemic or institutional in the way misogyny is. It's much more pathological and individual. I haven't met many people like this and it is definitely an outlier, whereas misogyny in men is commonplace. Humans, of course. The spider dating scene is a whole different conversation.
I'm curious what in particular you meant by one of the biggest roots of the problem facing the world today. The patriarchy, or something else?
Patriarchy, to be sure. But I'm also rallying against the false conceptions many people have about the acts of males in patriarchy.
Put simply, there is no male who does not benefit from the patriarchy. What's more, masculinity itself is a toxic expression of itself. You'll find that naïve liberal humanists often speak about "positive masculinity", yet they either struggle to define it or define it through traits that have no reason to be male-exclusive. Masculinity and, thus, maleness itself is a poison on this world that has been choking it for as long as we've been alive.
Well, this is what I do. When I think about what it means to me personally to be a man, to be masculine, I think about the ideals I try to live by. They're all universal ideals; but I think myself and the rest of the male community are better off for embodying them.
I expect women to do this as well; I think the majority of positive feminine traits one might try to identify are traits that have no reason to be female-exclusive. I don't think either femininity or masculinity are inherently toxic. What I would call the dominating ideas of modern "masculinity" are mostly toxic.
But I'd ask of you to consider that many of us are trying to be positive examples to other men. I myself have isolated toxic traits within myself that were learned from the male community; I didn't have a dad or a present mom, my male guardian was extraordinarily abusive and patriarchal (Catholic deacon ex-boxer), and I grew up in a backwards, rural area. I'm still working on being the best version of my self.
Especially when you consider that for any change to be effected within the male community, the conversation takes place with respect to any notion of masculinity. You are not going to be able to sell to men as a whole the idea of shedding their gender identity. Believe me, I would love if the entire concept of gender identity disappeared tomorrow and we all just saw ourselves as people, free to express ourselves in whichever manners we choose, without constraints such as "maleness" or "female...ness". But, gender identity exists today, it is culturally inherent and the best way to effect change today is to discuss what masculinity should be. I'm glad that the traits that come to mind for me are not male-exclusive. I would be very sad if there really were such fundamental, irreconcilable differences between men and women.
Every time I go online I try to remind myself that the majority of comments are coming from bots. The men in my life don't talk this way.
And where is this sentiment that women will only look at the same 5% coming from? One woman's 5% is going to look very different from another woman's 5%. Go outside and don't interact with just women, but a variety of people and a variety of different couples to see what normal relationships look like.
It seems in these conversations that the main concern for men is attracting women, but going by the way they talk about them, it doesn't sound like they respect them as fellow human beings. Some of the concerns women have during dating are: are they safe to be around (read: am I walking into a situation where I am going to get raped), am I going to be called a slut or a whore if I do x y and z? (Am I going to be called a slut if I don't?) It's what the internet talks about, and what media and your family will constantly warn you to be on the alert for.
Do women also engage in superficial behavior? Sure. Yet, I don't fault them for it. Women have been subjected to centuries of socially reinforced mass commercial and government propaganda, just like men. We are living in an age of manufactured consent and commodified personality traits. Gillette leveraging womens' magazines to convince women and men that body hair on women is not sexy. I hate what this culture of propaganda has done to us as social beings.
And yet, as you've described, the difference in experience between men and women is chilling. From how they perceive the world when walking alone at night, how they have to be more careful when consuming intoxicants at parties (and are socially shamed for failing to do this even when men are given a pass for getting so plastered they shit themselves), have to be more considerate of their presentation, their words, etc. And what is sad is that when you try to bring these things up as a man, you're often met with suspicion that you are against the entire concept of manhood. Which on its own is quite telling about how men subconsciously perceive themselves on a collective level.
The conversation seems unbalanced to many men because the world we live in is unbalanced, but many just don't see that because they see benefit in the status quo.
I’m not seeing anything about attracting women, just the natural dynamics present in populations.
You’re the only one I see using ‘slut’, ‘white’, etc.
And talk about missing the point; You are either ignorant or deliberately manipulative to admonish someone for speaking plainly about women's experiences. Are you next going to tell the Black community they're no longer allowed to use the n-word?
I was speaking plainly about womens experiences, and was responding to the poster who was denying them. The poster who was shaming recognizing women as people who are not actually on pedestals.
what are you even talking about?
My objection to the original thread was the dehumanization of women (and men) using the words ugos, mids, "the best", and grooming (young) men to approach situations in a calculated manner and assigning value to people based on their looks. If they happen to get rejected by an ugo that they perceive as being of lower attractiveness, how is that going to make them feel?
I'm not a psychologist nor do I understand human behavior, but this entire wording makes me uneasy, and it is awful to see it being promoted in something as benign-seeming as a tech forum. Also see: hypergamy, "explain them the math" -> "share the same top 5% of men", "women actually say amongst themselves".
The entire point of me including that last paragraph was to share a little picture of the kinds of expectations/language women are thinking in (sounds like I failed?), hopefully humanize them, and may also add color to these "natural dynamics", on top of other factors than just pure number ratios.
Men having the ability to date 100 women isn't the same as women having the ability to date 100 men because the risk factor and thinking is different. And if you are coaching men to think in this sort of language, well... IDK. I'm just glad I don't need to date in this current climate.
I love my SO and he adds so much to my life, but if I hadn't found him, a life with a snuggly cat sounds just as lovely :). I hope people who are afraid of being alone after they see this-and-that scary number are able to see a future in which they can also just be content by themselves, if it comes to that.
You will be shocked, if you talk with men who are really able to analze their traits and talk openly about it, how SIMILAR and shared these are :-)
Men are quite simple on some layer. Especially this dating layer. Even if some claim not being part of these "mind & traits behaviour", nonetheless they mainly think the same.
You might be interested to know that "this is the way things are" is not a valid excuse for perpetuating learned prejudice. I in fact take issue with some of the collective behavior of both men and women. Shocking, right?
Men around the world are functioning the same way,esp. on some levels like dating. Like it or not :-)
Men are simply >simple<. You do not have to accept this, even if its statisticly true.
And upon this adds men-specific behaviour with huge costs to society,but thats not part here.