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Comment by Grombobulous | Hacker News Reader

Automatically downloading AI models into disk space with no user-facing way to turn it off is especially hostile considering Apple as vendor of both the OS and the hardware is the same entity that overcharges for non-upgradable SSD storage in their machines.

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Meanwhile, other people are complaining about companies making you rely on cloud compute for AI. The exciting thing about Apple Intelligence is the prospect of writing apps with the assumption that it exists on everyone’s computer.

You can’t assume that though, Apple Intelligence is not supported on everyone’s computer

Apple Intelligence, for better or worse, runs on every Apple silicon Mac. Any machine which can run macOs 27 can run the local models. Some machines may run better local models if they gave 12+GB of ram, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Apple Intelligence is not supported universally.

In this context we are talking about macOS 27. If your app requires 27, then it can correctly assume every machine will work.

On the other hand, a whole lot of machines that can run macOS 27 and Apple Intelligence were sold with 256GB of storage standard, and those are the users that will be rationing disk space because of these models being downloaded by default.

These machines were actively criticized for providing lower base storage compared to competing hardware.

there's a third option youre missing here that people are consistent on: AI shpuld be opt in and nothing prevents opt in being default. AI isnt reliable or universally useful enough to include it defacto.

I don't disagree, but that opinion is going to sound incredibly quaint within a decade.

I don't think so, this argument stands in line eith the current stste of AI, if my statement of "not reliable or universally useful enough" stops being true, my claim loses its base, it stands fine on current evidence and is conditional on it, so it'll never look quaint.

I'm big on AI and have it deeply incorporated into every facet of my life but it _is_ an early tech with a lot of roygh edges, it is not ready to be forced into every aspect of public infrastructure and life yet. That's a simple fact of the tech's infancy.

There was a time saying forcing everyone to use the internet and closing all paper/phone lines for banking is a bad thing, would have been the right call. Now it's more defensible, still the wrong move for some in our social cohorts, but there is merit to that move now, However, at the internets infancy it was no different.

Disk space is there to be used.

Are these files particularly hard to clean out if your disk is getting full and you need the space?

Particularly hard for who? Why hard at all for anyone? Don't let the overtone window to slip.

How about stop deciding for me. I love to see my disk free space.

So true, also unused RAM is wasted RAM!

They'll rent you more iCloud space when you fill up the SSD. That's good, holistic customer service.

That doesn’t work unless you’re actually able to offload stuff from disk, which is only the case when you store stuff in your iCloud Drive / photos / etc.

Case in point: the AI models can’t be offloaded to iCloud.

Maybe someone can explain why their SSDs, when not soldered down, are a proprietary form factor and can't be replaced with a standard M.2 device?

To gain the same effect as one that is soldered down, while giving themselves a simpler portfolio of assemblies and a cheaper FRU to swap in the event of failure.

So vendor locking to make more money. :)

I believe they have a special kind of SSD, where the controller is locked into the motherboard. This is serial locked in some form.

(Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is how I understand it)

My understanding is that the controller is integrated into the SoC.

You can actually replace the storage on Apple desktops but it’s a bit of a pain and isn’t as cheap as m.2 2280 drives.

I don’t really know why Apple does this when their solution doesn’t seem to offer an obvious advantage. They aren’t faster than existing solutions or anything like that.

Vendor lock-in increases their profit margins. If people could purchase a 128GB Mac mini and install their own 2TB drives they wouldn't make as much money.

Longer traces and contact connectors require more power and generate more heat to maintain the same level of signal integrity as shorter traces and soldered connections. All modern Apple hardware is downstream of its phone division. They don't make a specialty PC that runs a very different O/S (macOS instead of Windows) anymore, they make a scaled-up phone that runs a slightly different O/S (macOS instead of iOS) now.

The SSDs inside the desktop Macs are socketed so there’s no difference in contact traces.

There’s definitely a big difference in storage architecture since the storage controller is on the SoC, and likely for the reasons you mention.

I'm not saying it was ever necessary for any of the computers (except maybe the passively-cooled MacBook Air), but that it was necessary for the phones, and so that design was carried over to the computers. There was a considerable gap (18 months) between the release of the M1 Mac Mini, the first Apple Silicon computer, and the release of the M1 Mac Studio, the first Apple Silicon computer with replaceable storage. I'm sure that time wasn't all spent on developing the storage socket, but much of it probably was spent on adapting to and utilizing the larger power and thermal budgets more generally.

It’s not actually serial locked, you can replace SSDs by desoldering and resoldering a NAND chip. But basically their SSD controller is integrated into the M-series chips (mostly because cheaper, less connectors to manufacture). But it’s a very specialized process

I think most consumers would happily pay a bit extra for these controllers if it meant that they could manually upgrade their SSDs. I can’t help but have the feeling that it’s also quite convenient for Apple that all this stuff is effectively non-replaceable / upgradable.

I don’t think the benefits are the same as with their RAM being part of their SoC, as that gives them real speed improvements, right?

I disagree. I think 90% or more wouldn't care.

Indeed,

> manually upgrade

or “average Apple customer”, pick one

btw something beautiful about the YouTube videos of shops in China doing those SSD deletes with the power tools

I'd be amazed if even 1% care

> it’s also quite convenient for Apple that all this stuff is effectively non-replaceable / upgradable

On the other hand, I’m happily banging away on my ca. 2020 M1 MacBook Pro. It just got a warranty service, free to me, that replaced the screen. It will probably get replaced around 2030. That simply isn’t the norm with the alternatives.

The hypothesis that this is self serving isn’t supported by the evidence. Instead it’s more parsimonious to conclude that this is Apple being Apple with pushing design to the limit when it comes to executing a vision. User-upgradable parts have not been part of that vision since Jobs returned.

> User-upgradable parts have not been part of that vision since Jobs returned.

Macs were quite repairable and most parts were replaceable until ~2012. So it’s hard to blame Jobs for that.

> Macs were quite repairable and most parts were replaceable until ~2012. So it’s hard to blame Jobs for that

Not "blaming" because I'm not convinced it's the wrong move. Soldering memory directly onto the logic board has advantages relative to a fully-encapsulated drive.

Apple learned this, in part, from designing the iPhone. And Jobs always had this penchant for pushing design to its limits even when it sacrifices conventional (and in some cases, probably necessary) functional requirements.

What I am convinced about is the lunacy of the planned-obsolescence argument. The longevity of Apple's products simply doesn't support it.

I've had good luck with AppleCare and warranty service, and most of my Macbook's have lasted well.

On the other hand my sons 2021 Mac Mini M1 with an estimated < 20% writes remaining on the SSD is not looking very cool. In fact, rather disappointing and the computer will be junk soon due to the SSD only.

> User-upgradable parts have not been part of that vision since Jobs returned

Steve Jobs literally got up on stage and proudly showed off the PowerMac G3 with a side door you could hinge down to open up the machine as it was running.

It was once Jony Ive got more power that everything went to pot. The first Macs with soldered-in storage were released after Jobs' death.

They could easily give us a system that can be easily upgraded. At least the SSD.

And I would inmediately put an order for a 256GB Mac Studio with 1TB SSD, if I were to know that SSD can be upgraded later on. I dont even mind if I have to buy premium SSD upgrades from Apple.

But locking the system in and knowing the decision is final? No thanks. And no way I am shelling 18k or whatever outrageous sum they ask for 8 extra TB.

It might be they are leaving money off the table with their greed.

Note that before the Mac mini socketed SSDs, Retina MacBook Pros had socketed SSDs as well. They were not standard M.2 either though, you had to get specific aftermarket parts from the likes of OWC

My understanding is that they are not SSDs - they lack a disk controller, instead providing flash memory more directly to the SoC

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but what you're calling "good, holistic customer service" is more commonly described as "inventing a problem and then selling you the solution".

Google is doing the same on Android - there's no native tool to search for large images and videos by date. There's a Purchase Google Cloud Storage type of header that pops up when you start to get full, and you can delete whatever is quick to find or remember to delete, like WhatsApp media, which you find through an annoying directory structure with a broken tool. It's terrible.

Gosh, maybe there are two companies that are both doing the same bad thing, rather than the thing being good?

> Google is doing the same on Android - there's no native tool to search for large images and videos by date

This is completely untrue.

Android Files app.

I just went to the very top, selected images and videos, and set a custom date. (And then sorted by filesize)

macos has tons for features. you expect them to provide a way for users individually turn off each feature in the os ?

Many arbitrary features can be turned off: I haven't turned on Siri on a phone for many years, because the utility was minimal vs the annoyance of errors in voice activation. Taking very significant space in your drive is just as important. I can uninstall Pages and Garage Band. I should be able to uninstall apple intelligence

  I can uninstall Pages and Garage Band.

Not Chess.app though!

Its no one independent app like garage band though. Like safari has features baked into it that use it ( eg: creating extensions with text)

If it consumes valuable disk space (especially with current insane market prices), yes.

To be fair.. why not?

Yes. I'm sure these overpaid minds apple can come up with a package manager and dependency system system. It's not rocket science. A lot of force-fed features should actually be on-demand installable rather than baked in.

They literally had that in the previous version of the OS. Apple Intelligence had a single on/off master switch.

Like it or not, Siri is one of the features of macOS and has been for a long time. It's not just some arbitrary AI model that Apple decided to store on your disk.

“Siri” has existed for a long time, yes. Apple Intelligence, not so much. It really is just an arbitrary AI model, since I’ve had Siri for a decade and not needed whatever this extra 13GB model is.

You've had a previous version of Siri for a decade that didn't do what the current version of Siri does. Whether you use it or not is not germane to whether the model is justified – it's what Siri needs to do what Apple wants it to do.

> Whether you use it or not is not germane to whether the model is justified

Huh.. well yeah, who cares what users need or want. Perfect attitude for a company making money by selling products to consumers.

If you say so.

Siri didn’t always have a multiple gigabyte installation surface.

Sure, it doesn’t bother me that I can’t uninstall Siri or Apple News or Stocks on my Mac because those programs take up a trivial amount of space. I can just disable or remove them from the dock and move on with my life.

That’s not the case now that “Siri” is a double digit gigabyte installation, especially if you assume that my computer has 256GB of storage, which was almost certainly Apple’s most popular MacBook Air configuration within the last 5 years.

That is a new change where Apple is using 5% of my storage space for something I don’t even want to use.

And yet somehow they managed to not take up 12 GB of disk space that required running multiple manual steps to get back for a while.

Superfluous details

The majority of Macs sold have tiny SSDs. So not really.

My impression was that the comment you're responding to was intended ironically, but I've been wrong about this sort of thing before

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