It's weird that so many Germans are sympathetic to Russia given that they were subjugated by Russia for decades.
Can someone please explain what's going on here? What am I culturally missing?
Can someone please explain what's going on here? What am I culturally missing?
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyeedd6kzdko
> A German military officer has been sentenced to three-and-a-half years in prison for spying for Russia.
For instance, it's suspected that Epstein worked for Israel to acquire blackmail material. We know Epstein recorded everything that happened on that island, and not secretly.
They are adversarial to everyone, but everyone who wants to maintain friendly relations with the U.S. is obliged to play nicely with Israel.
The Spiegel news magazine reported late on Tuesday that investigators were pursuing a possible connection to Azerbaijan.
From personal experience I would also say that Germans and Russians are alike in quite a few ways - both are pretty chauvinist societies looking down at other nations, and both have very low empathy. Obviously, there are big cultural differences as well.
Combine this with a step economic decline and voila you got the perfect conditions for autocratic sympathies
Reasons include people who benefitted from the Soviet Union, often due to business and trade. Analogy would be Foxconn, a Taiwanese company which is dependent on manufacturing in China.
Nostalgia/rose-tinted glasses/rosy retrospection, Ostalgie in German.
Families that were ethnically from Russia, moved during the Soviet Union times and still have ties to Russia.
The former East Germany is way more pro-Russian than the former West Germany, showing the effects of these factors.
The US has betrayed a lot of humanity with the catastrophic wars it has fought since 2003. But in Europe, the results are very, very clear: many Europeans actually have the temerity to establish relations with the refugees who have been arriving for decades now, and through that contact, seek to understand that the world is being kept at war needlessly.
Many Western observers tend to miss the fact that there was a period between the end of the cold war and the beginning of the Ukraine conflict where Europeans were kind of glad to have peace in Europe - like actually with Russia being considered a part of the European community, where after years of distrust, peaceful relations between Europe and Russia were actually kind of happening.
This has all gone to /dev/null now, but there is still an unheard/heavily censored group of European citizens - in pretty much all of Europes’ western sphere - who simply would prefer to establish peaceful relations with Russia, and go back to actually flourishing and prospering.
Oh, and ending all wars on the Middle East, so the refugees from the US’ wars can rebuild their countries and go back home. Some day. Maybe.
Of course you won’t hear about them much, but if you pay close attention in the cafes and bars and riverside grills, you will hear them: many Europeans do actually believe in and want peace and simply don’t think the current crop of leaders are capable of it. So they express this not as sympathy with Russia, but as a willingness to effect the political change necessary to avoid catastrophe.
But many Europeans don’t believe that Russia is going to be defeated, nor that the Donetsk->Crimea corridor is worth igniting the rest of Europe over. The most common refrain I hear, is that portion of Ukraine should have independence and neutrality, like Austria. How this is to be attained, of course nobody knows, but it is very definitely a common refrain.
If Europe gives in to Russia in Ukraine, anyone with basic understanding of history can see that they'll turn their attention towards Baltics, Moldova and maybe Finland and Poland. Putin doesn't want to return those "good years" between cold war and Ukraine conflict, he wants to return to the glory days of Cold War when Russia (Soviet Union) was a real superpower.
Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
Fortunately, there are growing segments of European society who actually want to have a bright and prosperous future. This doesn’t happen with war - it happens by making sure your neighbors are well fed, too.
I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable. It's the local rich, corrupt oligarchy stealing their prosperity, not any foreign power. They're the ones waging war as well.
I'm worried of growing segments of Western European population that are happy to make an unfair deal with Russia, as long as it's some Eastern Europeans and not them who will suffer the consequences. I guess from their viewpoint some dead Ukrainians, Estonians or Poles is acceptable if they personally get cheaper petrol and gas.
With Gaza, Germans have been enlightened to the fact that the war in Ukraine isn’t the only atrocity their state is involved in. German ammo kills kids: a growing segment of German society is starting to understand this.
> I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable.
Yes, and I think Europeans understand that the most effective way for Russians to learn this, is for Europe to lead by example. Accountability for European leadership is also a massive problem. Germans seem to be very much more aware of this than most.
You can easily say this about the UK and the USA as well, you know. There isn't something exceptional about the US' corrupt military-industrial complex, except for the absolutely horrendous, atrocious scale of its victims.
Russia can fix itself. I am as optimistic of that fact, as I am of Americans fixing their issues, too. Seriously, Americans, fix your shit. Only then will you have what it takes to get Russians to fix their shit, too. Not before.
Russian administration is the reflection of the nature of Russian people. Look at Russian history - it is very unlikely that different administration would behave differently.
Putin is not a blip, he is the trend.
Russians will never submit to war or threats to subjugate their nation.
They will align with mutual economic prosperity, however.
German society seems to be having a moment where it realizes this, suddenly. Germans really don’t want another billion euro’s being spent on slaughtering children. They want the cheap energy back, and they want peace in Europe through the only way there has ever been peace in Europe: strong economic ties between states and mutually assured prosperity.
Would you be okay if Russia had its bioweapons facilities located within a strong winds’ distance of your states major population centers?
Would you be okay with foreign investors in your country using power and wealth to gain cover for their genocide and influence your politi … ermm .. okay, never mind, you probably are okay with that if you’re an American ..
The ex-DDR folk has nothing to do with this. They literally want a tzar and claim the life was better in DDR (translate: got stuff for free, didn't have to do much).
There are plenty of ex-DDR folks who think we should just get on with the war and start annihilating everyone from Dresden to Kamchatka, too.
Alas, the challenge for those who want peace is to get those who see only war to sit down and shut up for a while. Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
> Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Yeah, whatever that is. They don't know themselves.
Unlike the ex-DDR folk craving for Russia to take care for them. There's a reason why that part of Germany turns right and votes AfD now. It's a mix of USSR nostalgia and dislike of the Western Germany because they believe they are still mistreated, 35 years on.
Between the end of the Cold War and the start of the war in Ukraine, there was no peace in Afghanistan, in the Caucasus, in Syria, in Georgia, and in Crimea.
Russian misinformation and funding of far-right parties had never stopped. Every country in Russia's vicinity knew that it was coming for them. In the West relations were peaceful indeed, because all these wars were with faraway peoples.
If you're not a paid shill but genuinely believe what you're saying, you're what they call a useful idiot. This attempt at the apology of Russia, in this pretend calm tone, with emotional bits peppered throughout, is disgusting.
A lot of people who came to the West thanks to the peacefulness of Russia also want to go rebuild their countries 'Some day. Maybe.'
And lower down you say Ukraine should have some neutral autonomous territory. Maybe parts of Poland and of the Baltics and of Finland will also know the prosperity and peace that comes with 'neutrality'.
How dare you.
It is Western wars producing the conditions for 35 million war refugees to flood the worlds borders.
Do you think all Germans are ignorant of what the warmongers in their state have contributed to the situation in Gaza? And that they are being nevertheless led by those same warmongers into yet more catastrophe?
A rising segment of the German population are sick of frothy-mouthed warmongers having the podium and recognize that if they don’t change the leadership who brought only war and calamity to the world, it will end in disaster.
Yes, Russia needs better rulers, and yes Russia should face justice for its wars - they won’t get this at the end of a European spear, however. The only people who can do anything effective about Russia, are Russians: Germans understand this very, very well. And they are turning to apply the very same rule to their own state.
Because Russia has a long way to go to come even close to the atrocities of Western allies. The USA and its allies are a far, far worse danger to the world, by orders of magnitude. Russia is following the Western lead on war atrocities, and we have, by far, the worst stats of them all.
When we prosecute our own war criminals, only then will we have the moral altitude to jump on Russias case - but not before that happens. The populations of Poland, the Baltics, and Finland may not understand their own states’ culpability for contributing to atrocity - but Germans sure do. (Note: see also, France.)
Intelligent, informed Europeans know that the only path to peace involves personal responsibility for the war crimes of their own states.
So they let their democracies function. Those politicians who promise to rein in the warmongers - whatever else their parties promise - are gaining traction because of this fact.
Do you think that Germany might have done something right before this "subjugation"?
Maybe 25-40 million things?
1) People who want to trade.
2) People who appreciate Russia's undeniable cultural achievements.
3) Organizations like the LaRouche Schiller institute that are most likely CIA fronts, double agents or both.
There are just people who like Russian ballet and then the CIA. So long as you do not wish to recreate the Warsaw Pact, then you are not a sympathizer but just a Very Normal German
Thank you Vlad for your contribution
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/01/15/s...
For the rest: Stop interfering with EU politics and free speech. I hope Ukraine never joins the EU, just as I hope Russia never does.
> Graham recalled that LaRouche associates came up with what he called good intelligence about the situation in Angola, Mozambique and elsewhere. Graham said that in the mid-1970s, he and DIA colleagues concluded that some of the information was so sensitive that they suspected the LaRouche group was getting some of it from the Soviets or another government. Graham added that he couldn't prove the contention
Hmm... what's more likely: Russian sympathizing group with connections to Russia and advocating Russian positions and disseminating intelligence of likely-Russian origin is... Russia-aligned?
No no, it must be CIA-aligned because umm... they gave info to the CIA. There are no conceivable reasons that a truly Russia-sympathizing group would want to give the CIA information, right? Lmfao
You mean war, genocide, destruction and misery?
Putin got'em addicted to cheap Russian gas and paid up anti nuclear NGOs who also got cash from big oil.
Also Berlin still has some Russian minority since the GDR. That includes anti Putin Russian diaspora or people that just needed a break from paranoia and brespredel.