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Comment by RuslanL | Hacker News Reader

They have asked to be a part of nato twice around 2000th and were both times rejected.

NATO is not something you can just apply to on a whim. The path for a membership was there: e.g. there were some joint exercises, etc. Obviously they also need political integration as well.

Russia actually have been a member of Council of Europe (PACE, etc.) since 1996 but it was expelled in 2022. If they had a good record in Council of Europe they could really go for NATO membership eventually.

Ok, about the path you describe: how can one join a military exercise without a prior green light for that? And speaking about the political integration: remember that Turkey is in nato, so it does not need more political integration than Russia had in early 2000th.

What happened is that nato realized that if Russia joins, it will loose the reason to exist (i.e. if the old enemy joins the alliance what is the need for such an alliance anymore?)

So nato bureaucrats understood that they will loose well-paying positions and rejected even initial talks.

I think you misunderstood me, Russia _was_ on a path towards NATO in 90s to mid-2000s. There was cooperation, joint exercises, etc.

E.g. from a conversation between Clinton and Putin in 2000:

> Clinton: I am serious about being ready to discuss NATO membership with Russia. I recognize that domestic considerations inside Russia will prevent this for now, but over time Russia should be a part of every organization that holds the civilized world together.

> Putin: But I'll let you know that when I was asked about possible membership for Russia in NATO, I supported the idea.

Regarding "reason to exist", there's always a concern about Middle-East, China, etc.

Funny enough that you remember it was as "Russia applied but was rejected" but from this talk it's clear Putin is much less interested in Russia joining NATO than Clinton.

You can find full text here: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/33393-document-3-memorand...

Thank you for the link!

I think after reading the document that Putin was very interested in joining NATO, perhaps even more so than Clinton who had perhaps been the primary Russia-in-NATO supporter of that time.

> Putin: But I'll let you know that when I was asked about possible membership for Russia in NATO, I supported the idea. It's important to note, however, that the United States raised objections to my public statement, and I don't think anyone in the alliance is ready for this. > Clinton: Well, we should start now. > Putin: This is the first time that we have heard such a statement from the United States, and I must say I am pleased.

I.e. it was the US and other member states who _opposed_ the idea and the subsequent Clinton's response was first time they have heard at least a verbal indication that things may move forward.

> Clinton: I am very encouraged by what I am hearing. We should think about this further, then maybe talk privately later. Obviously, it is better for Russia to be in the tent. Russia needs to understand that we have many fights inside NATO, and the United States doesn't always win them. The most important fight that we didn't win involved a failure, over two years, to act in Bosnia. We had to work like hell. If Russia and the United States had not had a disagreement about southeast Europe, we would not be having the present debate. Our discussion could be much more straightforward.

I.e. they want to get something back, for example an unconditional support in invading European countries like former Yugoslavia from Russia.

P.S. I also find it funny that the speech of NATO head at the time regarding the matter was removed from the NATO website: https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2000/s000306a.htm

That felt very 1984

Serbs were doing ethnic cleansing. NATO was just trying to stop that. They did not invade. Enough pro-Russian propaganda. 1984, my ass

Never ever that was a thing. There has never been any applications to have Russia as NATO member. What Putin was referring and had in mind was not exactly NATO membership but special treatment to Russia, that would allow using benefits of NATO, by not submitting to anything.

Right, there were never been any applications to have Russia as NATO member precisely because even initial, informal discussions failed:

https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-... https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-journal-of-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/p... https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/20... https://meduza.io/en/feature/2019/04/04/nato-was-born-70-yea... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...

the rabbit hole goes a bit deeper, and it seems that ruskie were trying to knock the doors since as early as 1954 and were repeatedly told to duck off

i have not found the proofs for the part "would allow using benefits of NATO, by not submitting to anything" - the closest to this was the request to accept them sooner

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