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Comment by Grombobulous | Hacker News Reader

The noise floor of economy cars is something you could possibly not notice until you actually experience a long highway trip in a luxury brand. That lower amount of road noise is a subtle but noticeable impact on fatigue.

Like a nice pair of expensive headphones, you don’t understannd difference until you experience it. Like a nice pair of headphones, it’s not a necessity, either.

That said, I don’t think that has a whole lot to do with weight. NVH reduction techniques like insulating material and structural adhesives are not a major weight consideration, it’s more of a cost issue.

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It doesn't even have to be a "luxury brand"; any full-sized mid-century car is going to feel much more comfortable at speed than a compact one today. Most of the latter seem to emphasise "sportiness" instead of comfort.

I sometimes drive my wifes Ioniq 5, which has much less road noise than my Yaris, but the constant beeping to warn me about everything and screens everywhere give me more fatigue than the road noise of my Yaris.

You can't meaningfully compare cars that are in entirely different price brackets. Of course a $150K top of the line luxury vehicle is going to drive nicer than a $15K economy one. But one person is highly unlikely to be shopping between the two and wondering which one to choose.

Expensive headphones and expensive cars are in that sense completely different things.

That definitely isn’t the kind of price comparison I was intending. I’m talking like “Lexus RX vs. Toyota RAV4,” which is the sort of thing where the right lease deal, certified pre-owned, or loaner vehicle discount could lead to a cross-shop.

And of course in the subcompact ultra-cheap segment like the Yaris was in you’d see a difference just from going up segment within the same brand without touching their luxury marquee.

Going further down this tangent I have always felt like the budget segments have really struggled in the US because paying cash or getting unsubsidized new car financing is so rare. Financing is easy to come by that the purchase of a penalty box economy car starts making a lot less sense when you think of the idea of “$50 more per month gets me into a higher segment.” Over 5-7 years that cost difference is significant, large even, but at some point you stretch out that cost difference enough and it’s hard to argue with the consumerist impulse.

Then you’ve got the “everything is a hybrid” setup with brands like Toyota where you’re not really saving any gas money by buying a smaller car anymore. This is also a significant reason why everything is an SUV these days. (And it’s not like you can get a cheap one, see the Chevy Trax or Kia Niro)

Lexus and Toyota are the same thing really, except for the small detail that Lexus is the premium brand created with the express goal of having distance between it and Toyota. As soon as you're going to mix in things like "the right lease deal, certified pre-owned, or loaner vehicle discount" you are no longer comparing apples to apples and if you were to apply the same right lease deal, certified pre-owned or loaner vehicle discount to both sides of the equation there would still be different audiences in play.

And yes, within a single brand there is price differentiation too. That's the whole point: different priced vehicles for people with different budgets and matching expectations. Absolutely nobody is going to expect the same kind of luxury from a Yaris as from a Lexus.

I agree that when you spend other people's money it is easier to overspend, no contest on that.

I’m using Toyota and Lexus specifically because they are very similar vehicles. You buy a Lexus version of the same vehicle and you get more noise reducing materials and a measurably quieter ride, among other niceties. That also can happen when you step up from a Corolla to a Camry, definitely from a Yaris to a Camry.

I never intended to make an apples to apples comparison. I’m not even really making much of a commentary on how much money people have to spend.

To own a 2010 Yaris someone had to buy that as a brand new car off the lot. The value proposition of that sort of new car purchase is a difficult sell because someone on a budget like that isn’t buying a new car typically, and because of how car buying is financed in America.

If a new car buyer is bothered that the 15 year TCO of a Camry is $750 per year ($60/month) higher than a Yaris [1] when considering fuel economy and purchase price spread, that person is likely not going to be buying a new vehicle at all.

The way depreciation curves work there is a cost floor on a reliable transportation and that depreciation curve isn’t favorable to small economy cars. You don’t predominantly see lower income buyers driving Yaris, Mirage, and Chevy Sparks around. Instead you see them driving around in whatever vehicles depreciated the most and had enough new sales volume to be widely available as used vehicles.

Sure, that’s not an apples to apples comparison. But that’s the kind of real comparison that buyers make, in my opinion.

I’m not here to say that the person replied to is wrong for driving and enjoying a Yaris. I’m merely trying to explain why those economy cars have disappeared from the market, as well as talk a little bit about noise reducing materials.

[1] Yes, I did the math on this. The base model purchase price difference was about $8,000, so that’s $533 per year over 15 years of ownership. The mpg difference is 32 versus 26 combined, so over 200,000 miles at $5/gallon average that’s a fuel cost difference of $3233 or $215 per year. We are assuming maintenance and insurance costs are identical.

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