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Comment by pllbnk | Hacker News Reader

I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect.

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> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends.

I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death

Yeah wishing to see people who tried to torture and kill you dead is ghoulish.

It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents

But is the only way out further death and destruction?

Blessed be the peacemakers, as they say

While the attack on you is ongoing, yes, fighting back is the only way out. Giving up and dying is not peacemaking.

Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity.

Honestly, who are you talking to and what are you reading? Most Ukrainians I've met, my parents, their friends, refugees we've met: just want the Russians to go home.

From a few levels up in this thread:

> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends

To me this sounds like a desire for retribution, not just an end to hostilities. And that is what I am replying to.

I have no reason to believe that is an attitude commonly held by Ukrainians. And it seems like that post wasn't even written by a Ukranian.

on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served.

and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate.

punishment by death is never the right fit.

We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha.

agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel

You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned by invading nazi army. And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians or other peoples who have been through it.

Yes, I am lucky enough to not have experienced mass violence, and also I don't wish it on anyone else. I empathize (though I do not agree) with people who have experienced it, have had their souls worn down by the evil done to them, and who adopt these sorts of attitudes because of that. But there are also people who have had lives just as easy as mine, and yet, from their place of safety and comfort, they egg on war, and cheer when others get killed. I have nothing but contempt for this last group

You are right. Warmongers that never set foot in battlefields deserve nothing more than contempt.

I lived close to Donetsk until 2022 and I totally support the "ghoulish" label. we GOTTA find the way to stop this cycle of violence and unify around something. so far, practical everyday matters such as coal and steel, or silicon, have been pretty successful at keeping another world war at bay.

Interesting! I am from Donetsk myself, but left in 2014. I am pretty much united with my Russian friends on the topic of destroying putin's regime. Not sure if any other unity makes sense now.

putin has objectively caused a lot of harm, and desire for carnage is understandable, yet if we are to break this cycle, we should make the format of Nuremberg trials the new norm and make it so that even if we want to, we can't start a new war. unity around hatred is fleeting, temporary, and often leads to overcorrection, such as me being harassed for talking to my mother in Russian (I also fluently speak in Ukrainian and tell them go fuck themselves using all the regional swears I collected all over Ukraine) or Israeli having to apologize themselves for Netanyahu's decisions.

and everyday matters? they are boring and important, and if someone dares to touch the supply chain, they should face all the economic repercussions imaginable. ideally, this will make punishment for war immediate, inherent, and structural. and if we take it further into pony land, we may deprecate the military because its purpose will be carried by Brenda sitting behind a desk with Excel (or LibreOffice Calc) before her. :)

Just saw your comment, thanks, not sure if putins regime can be met with anything but hatred, and not only because of its treatment of Ukrainians, but also many Russians are as well victims of nazi kgb regime in direct or indirect way. For many people born in Russia, overthrow of that regime might be the only way to achieve better future for their family and their native region. Ukraine can achieve peace, forget about Russia existence for a while, and have minimum hatred for russians going forward, like Finland did, but for those people who were unlucky to be born in Russia, destroying kgb nazi is the only possible way forward, apart from the alternative of life in exile (like many did in 20th century during the original kgb regime). Same goes for Belarus as well. The most "Russophobe" people (in terms of kgb propaganda ofc) I've ever met were Russians born in Russia.

How can you group Ukraine and Palestine in with Russia and Israel?

Russia and Israel are the countries causing the regions to be war torn. They are mass murdering invaders, no better than Nazi Germany.

The mass murdering invaders in October 2023 were Hamas.

This consistent oversimplification and allergy to reading actual history and being an informed citizen is what ensures these types of wars will continue

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