Israeli settlers attack olive framers & Washington Post journalist in West Bank
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
This has become beyond ridiculous. I have personally gone from full support for Israel to now not even supporting Israel's right to exist. And I can't be the only one. I feel sorry for the (clearly increasingly rare) "normal" people of Israel but they will soon need to move out of Israel to not be bundled in with the crazies.
It always was, but things are now coming to light because their war crimes are being broadcast live for everyone to see from first person point of view.
Thank you for siding with the right side of history.
Always have been, it's all over media in Arab countries. It's just western media that is glossing over the genocide.
That seems ... unlikely.
Call it a million, maybe, at most, that might want to move .. pragmatically a hundred thousand per year over the next decade.
Currently
304 million people—3.7 percent of the world's population—lived outside their country of birth in 2024, nearly double the 153.9 million in 1990, per UN Population Division data.
The United States hosted more than 52 million migrants in 2024
~ https://www.migrationpolicy.org/journal/feature/top-statisti...so the precedent is there to absorb another million across the globe, although realistically the US in its current state is unlikely to welcome "peaceniks" who'd be accused of supporting Hamas.
Well we know with a certainty that more than half of Israelis oppose this government by quite a majority, the current government can't get re-elected. As for what Israelis think about the violence in the territories - I don't have numbers but yes I think the vast majority opposes it. It might surprise you but it is being reported on almost daily in the major Israeli news media with an extremely alarmist and negative tone (which it should). Perhaps it's self serving (every Israeli with 2 brain cells understands what this is doing to our reputation and our longterm ability to survive) but I truly believe it just contradicts most Israeli's morals.
You will find very few people say it's cool to attack some elderly reporter or some shepherd kid just tending to his goats. They exist for sure but I don't think they're that many.
BTW I'm even surprised to see opinion pieces by very prominent and quite radical figures in the settlement movement (Hagai Segal, Benzi Lieberman to name a few) calling to stop with this shit.
In the context of the upthread comment made not by myself which I appear to have taken on the task of clarifying as best I can ... that quoted statement probably really should be about the percentage of the Israeli population that { oppose the current government AND oppose settlement (not just the extreme actions) AND are prepared to leave and move elsewhere }.
It's good to see a growth of internal opposition to the extremes of Israel action against Palestine; that's something that in an ideal world should have been far stronger a good many years past.
Arguably both sides here have been guilty since the get go of not reining in their more extreme and likely more traumatised members; both understandable and escalatory in an arc that has lead to where things are today.
Of course, they also might also not feel like it. I was born and raised in the US. I strongly oppose almost everything President Trump does. I don't see why that means I should have to move.
This has become beyond ridiculous. I have personally gone from full support for Israel to now not even supporting Israel's right to exist. And I can't be the only one. I feel sorry for the (clearly increasingly rare) "normal" people of Israel but they will soon need to move out of Israel to not be bundled in with the crazies.
> I interpreted the comment as saying "we can solve this problem by moving the Israelis out of Israel." But this is dumbYou're correct here - it was dumb to interpret that comment as you did. It specifically talked about the small numbers of citizens opposed to the current arc of the state.
I responding to a comment suggesting that Israelis (not settlers, but Israelis in general) should move to another place, but the comment did not specify where they should move to. Where is this place that the Israelis can go?
I feel like people get caught up with notions of what would satisfy their sense of cosmic, historical justice without paying any attention to what can actually be done in reality.
Internal polling in Israel had percentage of Israeli Jews who support the genocide and mass targeted murder of children as high as 98%, and 85% Of Israeli Jews want more brutality and cruelty. Even the internal polls showing the lowest percentage of support for the genocide show support by Israeli Jews greater than 90%.
A country engaged in genocide needs to exist for your personal benefit? To carry out an obviously failed dream which was sold to the masses as the only viable option to be "safe" from extreme regimes and beliefs?
The West created and supported terrible individuals and dictatorships in the entire region, publicizing them to craft false narratives as a means of controlling the masses, despite it giving these people more power and connections. This fueled instability and showed how to become an effective enemy. It's beyond irony that the most dangerous of these threats have roots from direct funding and weapons from the USA/West, while groups and civilians became more organized and extremist directly in response to Western interference over decades. The evidence is clear, modern "wars" are driven by vain political "optics" and individual enrichment. You can't think outside the narrative and rhetoric of these systems and then conclude external action is going to make you safe.
We covertly and overtly mess with their lives, country systems, and leadership. We fund terrorists, criminals, and mercenaries to get our desired result. We invade and fight however we please, insert whoever will benefit us, then retreat on a whim, after destroying the infrastructure and systems of democratic response except for protecting access to what we can take (oil), without a plan for the country or citizens. We leave it to fester, forget the country exists, then later wonder why a country in shock and decline ends up being controlled by violent groups. We then pretend to wonder why the hardened citizens who fought for/with/adjacent/by-proxy for us and lost everything (loved ones, community, home, sense of belonging and safety) suddenly become radicalized. Then we use that as an excuse to start interfering again, or even wipe them out, on repeat. We also respond far harsher to any perceived interference with both hard and soft-power, such as killing civilians (including children), trapped in a country now run by these terrorizing dictators that we either directly supported, trained, or influenced.
By crazy mental gymnastics, many people then believe the conclusion to this is we are clearly superior beings living in the optimal societal system, ignoring the fact that these are humans just like us doing very predictable human things. This gets extended to an extreme belief that we must (and can, and have the right to) eradicate entire groups of people or races and/or re-educate to our way of living. The hyper-rationalizations of our actions to arrive at such flawed logic appears to be a symptom of the system which has been capitalized on for decades; such a complex and abstract atomized society forces us to find a coherent internal narrative that feels safe, aligned, and connected to (the hyper-real) external reality.
Closer to home, our own citizens died in failed wars based on lies, meddling, false-flag operations, scaremongering, and fearful rhetoric. Yet we still believe what we see and fail to question how a lifetime of this leaves us brainwashed into unquestionably feeling superior. It requires active effort to critically question our beliefs in such a system. Those that can't cope watch our own politics and media become extreme, hateful, doomer rhetoric, to be angered into attacking people in our own countries for being slightly different, family even. It's an unnaturally inflated feeling, engineered to heighten the primal fears of anything "other" than what's declared to be correct.
We aren't led by example and we don't have good discussions. Education is to generate workers and self-autonomy, not to provide enlightenment or for personal development. Many never play fair and are praised for it. The past is somehow simultaneously irrelevant and yet paramount, so we are trapped in a loop of exploitation which sucks the life out of culture. We have no vision from the future that doesn't involve despair or escaping the planet. We are at the mercy of "markets" that have no centralized control, planning, or true backups and fail-safes, as the entire system is designed around the idea of self-enrichment rather than human safety and security. Safety nets are illusions or are under threat. Very few seem to know or care.
In the meantime, media institutions, information networks, technology, land, assets, and infrastructure is sold to anyone: designated enemies, adjacent enemies, known terrorists, convicted criminals, dictators, psychologically unsound individuals, etc.
Evidently it's never about making life better for people in the world, never mind in our own countries, and deep down we all know this to an extent. Individualism generates uneasiness from the lack of a primal sense of belonging. We try to mask it constantly with activity and thought, by seeking instant pleasure, ego-massage, and reinforcing our own narratives. Distraction, escapism, and lack of community isn't a model to force on the world. We aren't developed or psychologically sound so much as simply being rich, which allows some self-autonomy - both things we refuse to export anyway as we want money and power. So the whole set of arguments that we are spreading the means of being "stable, civilized, democratic democracy" is absurdly illogical and hypocritical.
Structured systems, open information, and collective action are the foundations of democracy. All have been under constant threat, from dismantling "bureaucracy", attacking access to information and banning/shaming protests to outright murder. With less restrictions and oversight, the scope and scale of power increases, reducing inherent stability and increasing the risk of collapse. The foundational aspects of modern democracy such as freedom of information and communication (without monitoring) is either a farce or constantly under threat.
We have not learned to be critical and aware vs being naive and ignorant, probably because it's scary and highlights how much energy will be required to change. Most choose to instead engage with the controlled reality, which bombards us with crafted actions and media to fuel the primal fear of any "otherness" being a threat, which justifies it to be controlled, exploited, or destroyed. They can then declare to you _why_ you are scared, and how it justifies whatever action that benefits them personally. The outcome doesn't matter to most, anywhere near as much as being told "it was a success" or "we are safer now", "don't worry we have all the answers" etc. Even if we don't believe, we are forced to listen because they hold access to the critical information and means of accessing it to make a decision either way, whilst they actively spread misinformation to deceive us. Our current "democratic" are more rotten and corrupt than the Soviet era.
I'm appalled at the rapid decline of what made the West something I'd recommend and be proud of sharing to developing countries. What we really did was export spying, weapons, technology, information, warfare knowledge, and terrorism. We train and support populations to become militarized, angry, and poor. The shocking state of things is evident and obvious now we have access to so much information. It's becoming less forgivable to ignore the reality hiding under the surface. We only have our ongoing example of society to offer to the world, and from the outside it's a shockingly obscene, hypocritical, primal, self-interested, short-sighted, performative, based hyper-reality that claims to offer personal freedom and federated power, but actually gives corporate freedom, secret alliances rather than competition, and centralized power.
I believe it's the fear of true reality feeds a divide. The primal response to viscerally defend the existing illusions when safety is threatened seems to be strong: double down, ignore all the previous failures, ignore what we can see with our own eyes, ignore the lies and manipulation, believe the false logic, subscribe to a specific way of thinking, and frame arguments about millions of human beings right to exist outside our country through a lens of how it indirectly affects a perceived feeling of safety (and oil prices of course). This happens by giving up a sense of self and becoming part of an invisible system of directed mass psychosis, just like a cult. It's cults, addictions, criminals, and exploitation all the way down. Lucky breaks allow some to struggle less, mostly at the expense of others.
Writing this makes me realize just how screwed up the situation is.
Life ain't perfect and it's never going to be. Just because someone has to choose between two evils it doesn't make them an evil person - the hippie idea "why don't we just all sit and join our hands around a camfire" simply doesn't work. So the next best thing is that I need to protect myself and the people dear to me from the externalities of, let me quote the most famous politician of 21st century, shithole countries.
The settlers know what they're doing and know how it looks internationally. While the IDF, government of Israel, and the Israelis who vote for it all vote for this, they consider themselves bulletproof. They're bragging as they ruin these Palestinians' lives.
Just like Iran, this is extremism that has to be fixed internally at a very low level, but it also looks like they're just getting started. I'd make historical comparisons but I don't need to. As standalone events, these are bad enough to require action.
Technology never changes the human nature. It only makes it more efficient.
What about Turkey burning Kurdish forests for years and not a post about it? why is the world so hypocrite https://www.asparagusmagazine.com/articles/the-turkish-milta...
- Israel has used "Hamas" as a get-out-of-jail-free card with people in the West - Hamas are not in the West Bank (which is physical separated from Gaza, where Hamas operated)
The amount of apologism, denial and support for the horrors Israel is perpetrating, in this forum, is unreal.