The Curse of Soldered RAM
blog.hardill.me.uk
blog.hardill.me.uk
>hard disks would even come with a list of known bad ones printed on the top.
HDD still do, but the flash on the controller quietly handles sector sparing, and remapping. This is why one can't just swap unmodified controller PCB anymore for data-recovery without secret vendor software. =3
Some, not all, harddrives have an eeprom that can be transplanted to a different pcb when trying to do data recovery on a drive with a faulty circuit board.
It is not that simple, as the identical part number may have a lot# with slightly different PCB/chips/firmware. If folks have done forensic recovery, than they get a rather quick education about the constant changes to retail HDD design. =3
I was programming already in the mid 80s and helping my dad figure out 20MB "Winchesters" in the late 80s/early 90s.
The Wren VII was the first consumer-grade SCSI hard drive with a capacity of 1GB or more — at 5.25” full height. The company had done a commercial-grade SAS drive based on the same chassis the year before. You had to be super careful with those magnets — they could cut off a finger, if you weren’t looking. And they were virtually impossible to remove from a fridge, once applied.
My job was to write a software system that could be used to monitor quality control issues in the manufacturing line, towards a goal of continual process improvement. I didn’t manage to get the whole management system built before I left, but I did get the full toolkit built, and the management system was intended to be a relatively simple layer on top of the toolkit.
Fun times!
Oh shit.
Damn. I don't have grandkids yet but ok.
I didn't come to HN to confront my own mortality and age ;P
Those aren't museum artefacts, it's just retro.
Get off my lawn.
That way when it was formatted, you could take it upstairs and the weaker magnetic field meant the disk's magnetic structure was stronger so it could be read.
This also caused the early-days meme of computer geeks being "basement dwellers".
Unfortunately, not many people making those claims _actually_ want them by revealed preferences. They overwhelmingly want the lower price laptops with similar performance specs.
I like and support what Framework offers. But when I last bought a laptop (a couple of years ago now) the FW13 was almost double the price of a similarly-specc’d and thinner/lighter Asus. (From €1000 to ~€18-1900).
I’d probably pay a ~40% premium for FW, all else being equal, but 80-90% is just too much: it just doesn’t make sense to whatever value-assessment algorithms I’ve developed over time.
It's not ideal, but then working on a laptop never is.
I used to use an 11" as my daily driver (and that was before retina-resolutions were a thing). It wasn't ideal, but it was fine for development work.
13-14" is the sweet spot between power storage, size, and energy efficiency in my opinion.
I'm pretty sure my memory is correct, and for a DIY Ryzen 8840/16GB/1TB it was roughly an 80-90% premium, which I'd not describe as competitive.
Instead, I got an ASUS Zenbook 14 OLED with those specs (albeit a slightly bigger better screen) for exactly 1000 EUR in a local shop.
Now, yes, I could remove the Windows cost (ahem), not pay for a charger, and save a little buying RAM and an SSD from elsewhere, but then it's not remotely an apples-to-apples comparison.
If you want to quibble with words, you're right that I could have hedged more in my original comment, e.g. "cost can be competitive depending what exactly you are looking for". I'm not denying your experience for what you wanted, but for what I wanted, the costs were pretty close.
Pirate Windows and using an existing charger saves ~€200. You can shave a little more sourcing your own RAM and SSD but probably not huge amounts, from memory at the time.
So the comparison becomes something like “if you spend your time and energy sourcing multiple components, and don’t mind pirating your OS, and have an old charger to use, you can maybe reduce the premium you pay for a Framework to 30-50%”.
and you'd be one of the higher ones.
But a 40% premium is not enough to sustain framework imho. The business model of framework is that you don't buy a new laptop, but just upgrade. Therefore, the lifetime value of one customer on framework is less than that of an Asus buyer (who would have to buy a new laptop every new CPU generation or when batteries die, which is probably at most 5 years).
Therefore, framework has to charge a lot more per customer to make the business make sense. 2x premium is not unreasonable under this sort of assumption.
I personally do think they're doing a good job of course, but i do also wonder the long term viability because their customers are so niche.
> Therefore, framework has to charge a lot more per customer to make the business make sense. 2x premium is not unreasonable under this sort of assumption.
If this is their model, maybe it makes sense from an MBA perspective, but I'm more in the MBAs-are-ruining-the-world camp, and I hate it.
A few points:
- I suspect that private buyers of laptops rarely have strong loyalty to a single brand, so Asus et al can't assume a long chain of purchases over time - they have to continue to compete on price and specs. Framework can probably assume stronger brand loyalty than every other manufacturer out there, based on a) if you've paid their hefty premium, you're really into what they're offering, and b) you've paid the high price of entry for the promise of lower-cost upgrades down the line, which you can only get from Framework. So Framework can probably assume a longer guaranteed income from each customer than any other manufacturer, even if the actual value decreases over time (due to lower cost of upgrades vs. full systems). However, if the upgrades are profitable as individual items, they still win.
- I'd prefer to see Framework sell computers and components at the lowest possible price they can while still being a viable business, with the margin of those items each justifying their existence individually. I appreciate that their economies of scale are different to larger manufacturers and their designs may be more expensive to deliver - this would be covered by a (modest) premium.
- Ultimately, I'd characterise the business model you described as "we'll f*k you on entry, and you might claw back some value over time". I'd rather aim for "we'll sell you a good product for a reasonable price today, and then delight you with the bonus of upgradability later on".
- I wonder whether their issue might actually be scale of manufacturing: that they can't deliver enough systems quickly/reliably enough to compete for a broader market (which would require lower margins to attract more price-sensitive customers) thereby driving them to target a more limited market of nerds who love the repairability concept, and also price higher per system to make the numbers work?
It does not. An MBA would hopefully teach someone to understand it gives Framework a USP and they only need the same margins as anyone else.
> A few points
Of those the first and last are the sort of things an MBA should teach someone to think about. The second is much the same and part wanting an efficient market (i.e. what free market capitalism is supposed to deliver). the third is entirely right.
If Framework makes the same margin as other manufacturers its viable. If they get more sales than they otherwise would because people want to buy something that will last it is better business sense than making something just like everyone else. its their USP.
But with the current increase in prices of hardware, i expect people to start thinking about repairability and upgradeability, which would increase the total size of potential customer base.
This is also an entirely different issue from the lifetime value of a customer.
That was before prices went crazy, though. Now the RAM alone is over 500€. Also, whether the repairability is worth anything I'll find out down the line, but so far it's looking good.
Perhaps for you, but I very much care about my laptop's size and especially it's weight, as I carry it around on a daily basis.
Repairing or upgrading it aren't really of interest to me, as I wouldn't be able to aquire the parts where I typically live anyway. And performance and cooling have already been more than good enough for me in most laptops for the last decade.
Thinner devices need more solid enforcement to stay stiff. My Thinkpad X60s weighs the same as a Macbook Air and it's infinitely more upgradable.
The latest models require repeatedly disassembling the sandwich from both sides. You have to remove the keyboard to access a screw, open the bottom, remove another screw to lift the top, then go back and forth between both sides just to reach a fan that frequently gets clogged with dust and needs frequent, regular cleaning.
Even worse, the unavoidable cleaning voids the warranty.
Laptop manufacturers would like to have you think cleaning them or removing a "warranty void if removed" sticker over a screw actually voids the warranty but it usually doesn't actually.
Easily
Affordably
Anywhere (almost anywhere)
In other words: not having to face something like this: “ah, so your A and G key don’t work? Lovely. Let’s look. Got it! The chassis needs changing and motherboard which is soldered into it. Good news, we can let you reuse the battery” and all that a bright grin that puts my house’s brightest LED to utter shame.
So.. can someone tell me again why a humble hinge angle sensor is paired with an entire hideously expensive top case assembly ?
Unless you live in India or a similarly developing country, this hasn't been true for many decades.
The local cost of labor is simply too high to make it economical to repair even simple things, let alone complex electronics.
Could it be that thin laptops are largely an excuse to provide a need to solder RAM; which in turn encourages consumption through obsolescence?
Not to mention how often I long for my MBA11 with the tapered body which almost made it feel like it was floating in my lap when working from the couch.
If you want the battery life improvements, bear in mind that there is a hard limit on how large a battery you are allowed to fly with, so low power components are important.
Also they not only solder DRAM, now they solder keyboards so that you cannot replace it easily. My garbage keyboard broke after just 2 years of using and I had to solder ~100 plastic pins to replace it (and the replacement keyboard turned out to be not of a great quality).
There’s plenty of laptops with 99.9 Wh batteries already… and more than that is challenging to travel with by air, restricting the market drastically.
It may surprise you to learn that the machine you describe has existed for many years now. I own one. It is wonderful, built solidly with high-quality components.
It is the Panasonic FZ-55 Mk2. The Mk3 is a bit newer. Both can be had on eBay reasonably priced, and Panasonic will sell you parts. (I recommend against the Mk1 because it is quite a bit slower.)
The FZ-56 is the newest, not yet available used.
These are from Panasonic's semi-rugged lineup, not nearly as heavy or thick as the fully-rugged.
Linux runs beautifully on it. I personally use Fedora KDE. Everything just works.
I've been eyeing LPCAMM2 interposers for non-RAM uses - as an off the shelf connector for stacked PCB designs. The conclusion was that it wasn't produced or used at sufficient scale for it to work.
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/business/tech-science/20260420/...
No supplier carries those connectors, there are no 1K prices I could find anywhere.
https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-pro-deep-dive-lp...
There are specialized shops willing to do this around the world. This is especially common in third world countries, Eastern Europe, China etc.. There are people who would do this change for around 5-10 USD in India (as long as you can find the replacement yourself).
I am amazed at how many people on this forum think of this as some scary dark magic.
One can also DIY such mods/repairs but it requires some extra equipment and supplies.
Searching for "bga soldered ram chip change laptop" on YouTube returns like thousands of results of people doing this.
Although I now realize how skewed my perception of microsoldering and other such skills because such skills seem to be extremely niche in the west.
Chip-level repair SHOULD be the norm.
China has been the master at this stuff for a while with institutes like Wantong Training School, Shenzhen etc.
It is a real shame that much of this knowledge is either on Chinese or Russian Internet forums or buried in obscure and unsearchable YouTube videos.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w
The problem here is that too many people have a vested interest to be unreliable, so we are never sure one way or another.
The anecdote about it being a common job in third world countries is interesting. I wonder where they learn to do it, and what all tools are involved. Maybe it's a family business thing and your kids take over.
As for where they learn it, there are tons of informal institutes, courses teaching people mobile/laptop repairing.
Although I will say, the people doing repairing in India have very little knowledge about basic electronics.
There are companies like Borneo (and other Chinese companies) selling schematics and laptop/phone specific repair/unlock guides doing much of the heavy lifting of distributing knowledge in this area.
As for what tools are involved etc. you can search "Learn Mobile Repairing" on YouTube and you'll get a lot of videos.
Here is a small list of people selling courses on mobile repairing in India alone:
- https://www.hitechinstitute.in/
- https://www.expertinstitute.in/
- https://www.multitechinstitute.com/
- https://mobilesolutionsdl.com/
- https://www.fasttechinstitute.co.in/
- https://www.abctechinstitute.com/
- https://www.artheducation.com/
- https://www.mobilerepairingcourses.com/
- https://screenfixerdelhi.com/
I've found just one store that carries them, but seeing as they reported "50+ units in stock" I called the store and learned that "the item is available through a third party vendor within four business days", but looking at that the ratings it would be more like three weeks.
T480s and T490 are inferior compared to the T480's usability of ports and batteries.
Just an hour ago I found a stick that isn't officially supported, but has all the right parameters, so 5600MHz, CL46, JEDEC compliance (of course), no XMP. We'll see if it's going to be an expensive mistake.
On that topic: the other day a friend of mine was complaining that his parents' laptop has locked-down UEFI, aside from other anti-consumer practices.
That laptop, with 16GB RAM, costed 16.6% less than the stick I just bought.
Can't you select and copy the text in the photo (on most smartphones and PCs at least)?
Tried a Tuxedo laptop, lovely 120Hz display, but keyboard layout and I disagree. Turns out I really like the older ThinkPad inverted T with pgup/pgdown bracketing, and the 4 keys to the right of the F keys. Problem is, that locks me to ThinkPad/Lenovo, as everyone else seems to use the split up/down cursor with Fn to get page keys. Also really prefer physical mouse buttons over the trackpad, and the Tuxedo was haptic only.
The upgrade cost on the LP RAM though.. 940 EUR for 32 -> 64. Sure, 23% is VAT, but damn the hardware costs hurt right now. At least SODIMM is still cheaper.
Optimal: piecemeal. As in: X sockets on a board, each socket takes a chip that adds CPU core(s), GPU cores, and some amount of main RAM. More chips, more powerful computer.
Keyword: socket. Read: replaceable. Bad chip out, good chip in. Slow chip out, faster chip in. Soldered onto board = reliable, but a defect could junk the whole machine.
Haven't Apple (A-series, M-series) and others been copackaging memory for a while? (SiP or MCM?)
Then there is the HBM which is an expensive process to mount on the chip.
Putting RAM inside the logic die is crazy expensive - just look at how much footprint L3 cache takes up on a modern chip. It'll always make more sense to put it in a separate die, made using RAM-specific processes. With Zen the memory controller and GPU has (once again) moved to a separate die, and with X3D we're now even seeing separate cache dies.
There's of course HBM if you want to consider that "integrated", but the large cost bump, additional manufacturing risks, and loss of flexibility don't make that an attractive proposition unless you really need the extra speed. Regular DDR dies? You gain basically nothing by co-packaging those.
The LP in LPDDRx isn't about creating thinner devices.
The LP stands for Low Power and is aimed at making devices that draw less power resulting in a longer battery life.
If it is not, how would all these appliance with memory doubt with bad memory?
But I suppose when one has to amputate, not being able to run a marathon isn't really a blocking factor...
Agree non user service parts is not good for consumers.
Use tools as d search Youtube videos memory upgrade device name before you buy a laptop to check if the memory is user upgradeable without soldering.
With the increase of soldered RAM it must be more important than it used to be ten years ago.
Just search for “bcdedit and ‘bad memory’” for more documentation
The issue, of course, is just how much time, effort and skill is required to do it.
It might become a viable commercial process outside third world countries if RAM prices spike even more - or if someone finds a way to teach an off the shelf $1000 robot arm advanced autonomous microsoldering.
Then there's the problem of forcing the device itself to recognize the new RAM. It's a device-specific trick. RAM sticks have a little tag chip that tells a PC "how much RAM this stick has", but RAM chips themselves don't - so the device has to infer its RAM capacity from elsewhere. Like strap resistors on the board. Which you have to find and adjust for the new RAM capacity. That, or fix the RAM values in firmware, which is also device-specific.
I'm surprised that in 2026 this is still true.
You could easily fit a little microcontroller on the die of each RAM chip which reports its make/model/manufacturing date, capacity and capabilities, can be triggered to run self-tests, etc. If they aren't doing that yet, I'm surprised that they aren't.
This sounds like an ideal application test case for precision industrial robotics, and I hafta wonder why we haven't seen an example posted here at HN.
I'm assuming if it were still under warranty, dead RAM chip would be enough to get a free repair/replacement from the manufacturer
Good BGA experience and a steady hand seems required
As for the videos and the Macs, you can see the same people (likely) soldering RAM as well.
Besides, since RAM isn't getting cheaper for a while, this isn't a big issue now.
At work, the standard issue laptop is some form of HP Elitebook. These have been getting thinner, and people seem to like that. We're not a tech shop, and even the IT dept. is mainly barely-technical project-managers. An 8th gen i5 would be plenty powerful for what they do, but fortunately for them we have to replace the laptops regularly because for some reason we buy them with the least amount of RAM possible (even before the prices exploded).
Anyway, at the start of the year I was fed up with the ridiculous screen quality of the HPs and other annoyances, so I got myself an Lenvo p14 something-or-other. It's almost twice as thick and much heavier than the HPs, and everyone who sees it makes fun of it.
I would argue the exact opposite, actually! My home machine has 32GB of RAM and is already over 7 years old. If it were to die right now I'd ideally go for an upgrade with 64GB so it would be good for another 7 or so. But that's completely unaffordable, and I could survive with 16GB for a year or two, so going for the bare minimum now and upgrading it later is looking very attractive...
"Smartphone makers glue them because it's cheaper and they can make more money ..." No. It's what the consumers want. Thinner phones, water resistant phones, and thinner laptops.
Water resistant? Those ratings are lies anyways, and nobody is going to bring their expensive smartphone on a diving trip to take pictures - or even take it surfing without a waterproof case. In practice "water resistant" means "won't die from an occasional splash", and that can be achieved perfectly fine by repairable phones.
Now, I don't know about surfing, but I regularly strap my iphone to my motorbike's handlebars to use as a GPS. No case. I don't particularly enjoy doing this under pouring rain, but it does happen, and the phone gets drenched. However, to the point about people wanting this, yes, I do. I would also love a replaceable battery. My old Galaxy S5 had both features, so saying that waterproofing means non-user-replaceable battery is a lie.
It's the "elephant in the room" sort of thing that doesn't need to be said because it's apparent and viewers know what they want in that regard. It does get acknowledged when reviewers that don't normally review toughbooks, review toughbooks, but it's an acknowledgement rather than a complaint. Why would someone even view a review of a toughbook if they cared so much about thickness?
CPU and RAM are socketed. Clevo had socketed graphics cards too
And yeah, it can be, but that's how you end up with the far slower regular DDR. Fast, repairable, cheap: pick (at most) two.
I agree there is draw back when using socket(mostly size), but performance is not the big issue.
MRDIMM RAM can reach even higher Transfer rate than LPDDR5, yet still socktable.
Smartphones also need RAM and are especially subject to requirements of always being thinner, lighter, and have a durable battery, yet have spacious amounts of RAM.
Growing demand for smartphone RAM pushed for its optimization and production scaling and since all its requirements also match laptops, this convergence was inevitable.
Hopefully the growing demand for datacenter RAM density will make modular interface standards like LPCAMM2 more available (soldered has no place in datacenter).