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Armenia Notes

marginalrevolution.com

18 pointssurprisetalk16 comments

It's weird but Armenians are not considered "white" by Europeans (or fellow Soviets). And calling them "Christian" is a bit of a stretch since they are non-Chalcedonian and their understanding of what Christianity is, is much further away from any Western faith than even Russian Orthodox Christianity. Still Christian, but only kinda, sorta. They haven't been in communion with any Western (or Eastern) Church since 451AD, that is, when Western Roman Empire still existed.

> calling them "Christian" is a bit of a stretch

Isn’t the Armenian church like the oldest Christian church? Why wouldn’t they be called Christian?

Because they rejected council of Chalcedon in 451AD which every other (every other that still exists, that is), Christian church apart from a few Arabic Christian churches that only have a few million believers total among them (such as Coptic in Egypt), accepted.

Every other Church (including Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox such as Greek, Russian, Serbian, Georgian etc., all mainline Protestant Churches etc.), believes that Jesus Christ exists in two distinct natures - divine and human - fully joined in one person or "hypostasis". Armenians believe that the divine and human natures are united in a single, composite nature within the one person of Jesus.

It is a Christological difference as big as possible while still staying "Christian" (one step of division further lies the Aryanism, which is already "certainly not Christianity"). Initially several Churches separated after the ill-fated attempt of reunification with so-called "Henoticon", but all others except the Armenian, either folded back, or simply became a tiny minority in their now-mostly Muslim countries. Armenia is the only Christian-majority country in the world that is still that way.

Think of it: dozens of wars and a millennium of mutual schism and hate happened between Catholics and Orthodox since the Great Schism of 1054. It happened over a difference much, much smaller than that.

This is why in fact Georgians and Armenians hate each other so much. They are the only two Christian nations in the world who are on different sides of the Chalcedonian divide and border each other.

This is also a reason why in Israel, Armenian population is bundled with Arabs, not with Christians, for statistical purposes. Because most people of their faith worldwide are indeed, Arabs.

"Georgians and Armenians hate each other so much" You are referring to in centuries old war that no longer exist today.

Armenians are virtually in every country. So being a small minority in Israel being held against them is the reason you consider them not Christian?

I merely pointed at Christological differences between them and virtually all other Christians, which are much deeper than those existing between even branches as distant from one another, and traditionally infighting, as Catholic and Orthodox.

You merely pointed out a bunch of nonsense, including, but not limited to: > This is why in fact Georgians and Armenians hate each other so much > Still Christian, but only kinda, sorta.

And why does this even matter? > This is also a reason why in Israel, Armenian population is bundled with Arabs, not with Christians, for statistical purposes.

"Because they rejected council of Chalcedon in 451AD"

Maybe you should read the context behind that and why? Also, since when being a Christian is tied to being a member of a group, treaty, agreement, or organization? It's not. This is not a valid reason to dismiss an entire country or a whole group of people.

You miss a simple fact, that the Armenian church is Apostolic Orthodox church, not Roman Catholic, and not Eastern Orthodox, and not any other church. They stuck to the original basic teachings of Jesus. Saint Bartholomew, along with Saint Thaddeus brought Christianity to Armenia and are considered the patron saints of the Armenian church.

If they are not Christian, what are they? It's a strange argument you are making here.

Armenia is the first Christian nation in history. Have you visited Armenia? The entire country is literally a large Christian display. Churches, Monasteries, and cross stones everywhere. The entire country goes to church on Sunday before doing anything else.

The Armenian alphabet was designed specifically to translate the Bible. The Armenian food mostly is about the Christian lifestyle. When Armenian women make the famous Lavash bread, when they are shaping the dough, the carve a cross in the dough before spreading it thin, for example.

The entire Armenian lifestyle is built around Christianity. So saying they are not Christian, is not based on any fact, or reality.

By your argument, no Christian today is Christian, and no Protestant church is Christian.

From your other comment. "It's weird but Armenians are not considered "white" by Europeans (or fellow Soviets). "

Armenians are not soviets. The country was taken under the Soviet Russia rule after World War I, does not make them Russians or Soviets.

"Georgians and Armenians hate each other so much" You are referring to in centuries old war that no longer exist today.

Armenians are virtually in every country. So being a small minority in Israel being held against them is the reason you consider them not Christian?

Since i don't think that anyone at all seriously believes in God or any sort of supranatural forces, "being Christian" means "belonging to an in-group". In the narrowest sense, as far as the civilised/free world is concerned, "in-group" is "mainline Protestant + Jews". In a wider meaning it adds Catholics and somewhat-more-exotic Protestants typical to the US. Adding anyone else like Eastern Orthodox, formerly-Orthodox ethnic Soviets, is already a stretch. Non-Chalcedonic Church that was out of communion for 1600 years? Big stretch.

How is what is common in the US relevant when we are talking about the church in Armenia? Christianity is a worldwide phenomenon and much older than the US. Defining Christianity relative to what is the most common denominations in the US is beyound stupid.

But well, US ~= free world, more or less. The rest of it is a product of American culture and policy. One way or the other, we all fully depend on what happens there, and on their perception of world.

From what you have posted on this so far, I see a clear lack of understanding of what Christianity is. No, it does not mean belonging in a group. It is not a cult, a club, or a membership. It means you have faith in Jesus and his teachings. Same as other main religions, and yet you insist that being a Christian must accept rulings of a treaty a convention, or being a member in a council or group. Was that what Jesus taught? Where is that in the Bible? Please feel free to point it to me.

This also highlights lack of understanding what the Protestant church and its branches are and why. I am not a Jew, so I am not qualified to tell some of them they can't be considered as Jews. Same with other religions. Who am I to tell some of them that they don't belong in their own religion?

You are entitled to your opinion, but not to present it as if it was a fact. And no, no one speaks for the entire world, so your assertion Armenians are not Christians, and then in another comment you even argued they are not Caucasians, not white, then implied they were soviet Russians. Armenian history goes back thousands of years, and is literally among the oldest civilizations. You don't have to take my word for it. That information can easily be verified.

Not sure where are you getting this revisionist history from and this false stuff about Christianity and about Armenians.

You also admitted that you are not a Christian, and not a believer in God. So given that, why do you think that you can decide who can be a Christian and who can not? Since when being a Christian means a required membership in a group?

Strange argument to make that only certain Jews and certain protestants can be accepted, then you added some Catholics, and "exotic Protestants", and everyone else is disqualified.

The bottom line on this. If Armenians are not Christians, then no one is. You are arguing the earliest church and the first Christian nation in history is not a Christian nation and its citizens, and the entire Armenians around the world, known for their strong Christian faith not Christian. Forget big stretch. That is a false argument and not rooted in history, data or facts.

That's the bottom line and I don't want to keep repeating what I said.

Feel free to do some research on this, or better, visit Armenia. You'll be surprised to see how far from the truth your arguments are.

Let's discuss who considers who white, European, and so on... I thought at least HN is immune from that, but here we go.

And how does believing in Christ and being the first country in the world to accept to christianity make the whole nation just "kinda-sorta" Christian?

They're literally Caucasians.

"And calling them "Christian" is a bit of a stretch" Seriously? Armenia is the first Christian nation in history. That's a fact.

The situation with Arzhah is a bit tricky:

Officially, Armenia admitted Atzhah is Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan said "it's our territory, we are goint to ethnically cleanse it", which they did. Neither Armenia nor Russia did nothing about it. Conlusion: Russia is guilty

> the cars stop when you try to cross the street

This is a lie. I generally agree with the rest of the post

Artsakh is the historically accurate name. For thousands of years, it was an Armenian land. Stalin cut it and gave it to the people who started moving to there to appease turkey after World War I. Up until recently, over 90% its population was still Armenian. They were forced to flea facing ethnic cleansing as their defense army was facing an much bigger invading army. The Armenian government did not have resources to help. But yes you are correct, Russia is guilty. Soviet Russia and Stalin is started this whole thing.

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