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Comment by threetonesun | Hacker News Reader

Internally written software does suck? NIH syndrome is always referenced as a warning not as an aspirational thing, even smaller companies need to focus on their business model not JavaScript frameworks.

That said, almost every JS framework degrades to... a browser, do whatever you want, I find it hard to believe any have actually limited your ability to accomplish something unless it was truly beyond the ability of a web browser.

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I am not sure what you mean by limiting my ability. When you aren’t using a framework you have maximum freedom to determine all design decisions in the code.

It feels like you've invented some definition of a "framework" that no one else is using. Or why not go deeper and argue against libraries and APIs because they limit your design decisions.

No OP is correctly using the term "framework" as it's widely understood among those who develop them.

Libraries are code that you call to perform specific tasks. You control the program's structure and execution flow. You're in charge and you call the library when needed.

Frameworks invert the relationship and call into your code and hence dictate the overall structure and execution flow of your application. It's in charge and it calls various customization points that you provide to it at predefined points.

These definitions largely date back to the late 1980s with the introduction of object oriented frameworks (see Designing Reusable Classes from 1988). Further references include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework#Comparison_...

https://martinfowler.com/bliki/InversionOfControl.html

It's obviously a grey zone, but React is generally considered a library more than a framework, and it definitely seems to be among OP's vexations.

React "is a library" in the sense that it has primitives you can procedurally use like normal javascript, but in practice it definitely is used as framework with all the usual dogmas.

No, Next is a framework, React is a library. You could write React components in a web framework on a completely different stack if you wanted to, same with most JavaScript rendering libraries, which was my original issue with OPs comment, the bulk of JavaScript libraries noted in the article don't limit you at all.

No, react is a framework composed by countless react-* packages.

Everyone always ends up fighting the framework. Work on a project long enough and it happens every time. It's understandable because the framework wasn't designed with your project in mind.

Yes, this closely aligns to the Law of Leaky Abstractions.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/11/the-law-of-leaky-a...

And after you do it 2 or 3 times you extract the repetitive work into a framework. Not sure if you have never got to that phase but it is quite weird to see a programmer that does not like (or understand) abstractions.

I use functions for what you describe. I don't need a framework to accomplish reuse.

Also, the framework worship is always a bit bizarre to me because the front end of even the largest of single page applications is relatively tiny compared to the supporting back end. If a developer is writing the entire application then why invest so much effort into over engineering such a small slice of the total code? It isn't productive unless it is the maximal extent of a given developer's capabilities.

> I use functions for what you describe. I don't need a framework to accomplish reuse.

A framework is composed of many reusable functions. You are really confused, arguing for this nonstop on HN for years. Not sure what you get from this but as someone mentioned, just show us the code and what you call a complex system developed your way. Code talks.

He won't. At this point I'm not sure if the user in question is mentally unwell or maybe even a robot. I've made the same observations as well.

You are not the only one. It is funny because initially I found his opinion slightly interesting as I dislike React and all frontend frameworks but my solution was to create my own. When you do more than 2 projects using the same base you have a framework. He can't realize that.

I am not going to show you my code. You wouldn't understand it and then you would bitch and cry that its not your favorite framework. Agreed in advance, its not your favorite framework. It works differently.

If you operate purely from convention then what does it matter if I did show you my code? What do you hope to gain from looking at something you have already dismissed in advance?

I have to say that I too am curious to see your code given the confidence and assertiveness you express yourself with. The excuse about knowing the critique in advance comes across as quite a reach, not to mention "you wouldn't understand it"..!

I have had similar conversations with framework cultists in the past. Not showing the code is something I have had to learn from past experiences with repeated results. If people were authentically interested in seeing JavaScript applications not written with React there are plenty of examples out there.

>Not showing the code is something I have had to learn from past experiences with repeated results.

lol sure!

Here is the code if anybody is curious:

https://github.com/prettydiff/share-file-systems

Just a poorly specified framework built on endless amounts of appendChild, createElement, etc.

I think you entirely proved my point. You did not understand the code and were just looking for something to bitch about. Strangely, you also ignored that this application is only a tiny fraction of front end code and a years old dead project.

Maybe your next magic trick will be learning to read.

We had this discussion in the past and at the time you were not ashamed to show this code of yours. I told you it is bad. It is really impressive that you talk so high of your programming skills on every JS thread tho. And it is not AI psychosis although it is very similar.

Let's make it simple. Is there any other code that is open source that it is as good as yours that you can point us to it?

Austin is most likely not a developer, none of his comments make any sense. All of his comments boil down to purist opinions and contradictions.

> All of his comments boil down to purist opinions

not even that, it is just an obsession and disconnection from reality. There are multiple benefits from not using frontend frameworks, React is really, really bad. He doesn't understand that the correct way tho he is right by pure coincidence.

He may be right in this instance (I personally disagree, I supported my family for years using React and built applications that generated millions of $), but frontend development is relatively young. We're seeing a consolidation effort though. What I hate about React isn't React, it's the ecosystem about it (mainly Next) and the effort to get it on the server.

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