What you are arguing is that all progress on models (outside of government labs or internal corporate workings) will effectively stop because there won't be funding for it. That seems unlikely to me. You just need to play it out...
US companies/investors go and invest a trillion dollars or something on models. Someone "does stuff" and reverse engineers their model. They go out of business (you said so [1]).
So now what happens?
Well, the US/DARPA/universities/whatever (all countries with interest) will keep working on this stuff and there will be some funding for it but that's about it. Military applications, physics, things like that.
Chinese companies will also fail and it will not be possible to create new SOTA ones because they'll obviously just be reverse engineered too and given away for free or at super low pricing - whatever happens in America must happen in China too.
So who will build new models? There's nobody around to pay for it besides governments or maybe corporate labs. But corporations and governments will protect the models (obviously, as OpenAI and Anthropic do today to varying extents) and keep the weights and stuff closed source. They'll have some productive use for them even if it's not in the download Claude Code and have at it style of B2C/B2B we have today.
Or
Maybe the trillions of dollars of investment going into these companies actually makes sense and the threat of open-weight models isn't what you and others seem to be suggesting it is. Whatever fate we seem to want to assign to America also happens to China here. To the extent they are behind, they're still running the same exact race. If open-weight models undercut companies they'll also undercut Chinese companies.
Just as Open Office exists today, so does Microsoft Office. Microsoft just makes all the money. I'm not sure why some seem to think that they can use the open source comparison here but not also use the open source economics that we've seen play out.
I think as a productive exercise someone should run this argument and explain why Chinese companies won't also be eaten alive by this alleged race to the bottom and have all of their stuff reverse engineered and given away. How can they invest in new AI companies with SOTA aspirations? Whatever argument you want to make for the US applies to China as well, and we can just give away freedom models to all the countries just like supposedly they will.
[1] "The important distinction is SOTA US labs - ANT and OAI - who can not economically survive reverse engineering / fast following PRC models at PRC pricing."
>whatever happens in America must happen in China too.
No, because PRC literally could not do what US did... they simply didn't have access to enough compute to dump so much $$$ capitalization for SOTA race. On the other hand, on paper US WITH MORE compute and (currently) CHEAPER compute can put forth cheaper models to undercut PRC open models... but functionally they can't for the same reason cheap PRC operators can't win in US - geopolitics. Undermining PRC AI requires giving PRC cheap US AI on cheap US compute which is sanctioned. But ultimately that is entirely irrelevant to the fact that CHEAPER US models will undercut EXPENSIVE SOTA US models. The undercutting is not symmetrical. US companies can use cheap PRC hammers (or even cheaper US hammers) to break $$$ US SOTA. US who on paper can provide even cheaper hammers to PRC... but cannot sell those hammers... so PRC stuck using cheap hammers... and since PRC never had chance to spend $$$ on SOTA, there's no equivalent valuable things to break even if they had cheaper hammers.
> trillions of dollars of investment going into these companies actually makes sense
We know the context for which those $$$ investment makes sense... if SOTA held meaningful lead to sell high volume of $$$ tokens which was hedge 1-2+ years ago when years of $$$ commitments were made. But doesn't seem to hold anymore, ergo it no longer makes sense. Microsoft had decades to build ecosystem and moat, just like adobe it was, actually hard and high friction to move away. People are switching models all the time. SOTA AI only labs has much less moat than Microsoft or other incumbent tech with decades of overlapping capture mechanisms.
> I think as a productive exercise someone should run this argument and explain why Chinese companies won't also be eaten alive
The productive answer is THEY ARE ALSO BEING eaten alive.
The even more productive answer is PRC commodity AI doesn't have to win for US SOTA AI to lose.
There's just not much meat on PRC AI bones so they are losing billions instead 100s of billions / trillions. Like there is ongoing domestic AI involution irrespective of US SOTA. Literally the primary reason PRC AI was forced to go free was because DeepSeek is billionaire side project who priced his hobby as free which set economics for all other players. Being sanctioned/compute constrained = they figured out how to close SOTA gap on the cheap but also set ceiling on how much they can lose on race to bottom. In so far their SOTA aspirations, again refer to DeepSeek, he takes some couch change from hedge fund gains or investors, and throws it at smart people and hope it's enough. If its not then they'll probably stop too. What PRC not going to do is mobilize resources equivalent to several % of GDP concentrated in few entities for SOTA AI, at least not until their compute is sorted, in which case competitive exposure / risks becomes symmetrical. In the mean time, things are not symmetrical and arguments against economics of US SOTA AI does not apply to PRC commodity AI.
I think the fundamental disagreement is you believe that cheaper models can just break the state of the art. This seems false because if it were true then the SOTA can also stop developing and spending on SOTA and just use a cheaper model to build their own better models and leverage their existing compute and energy infrastructure (or even build it out for better and more capabilities later). Anything that is released the SOTA has access to, but it also has access to things that others don't. It's ahead by definition and it's not possible to come out ahead of it because the SOTA will just absorb whatever open-weight/open-source/whatever is released and add to its own lead.
> SOTA AI only labs has much less moat than Microsoft or other incumbent tech with decades of overlapping capture mechanisms.
And those companies are worth a lot of money, continue to execute at high levels, are systematically important, and are by any definition wildly successful. That's my point. You have to apply the open source style argument fairly and equally. If you're going to suggest the cheaper models (which follow this open source software argument) are going to come into being and do all this stuff you also have to acknowledge that they made no money in comparison to the Microsofts of the world and Microsoft won because it made all the money. Whatever open-weight stuff that gets released everybody gets to use it and so tech companies get to use it too and accelerate their advantages. This is what we've seen play out, why would AI be any different when you're using the same economic paradigm as your argument?
> Literally the primary reason PRC AI was forced to go free was because DeepSeek is billionaire side project who priced his hobby as free which set economics for all other players.
American billionaires can also "just set up a side project" and reset whatever economics exist. The crux of your argument is someone can do this and then SOTA isn't economically viable, but you can't escape that this has to be true for everyone, not just the US. If it's true for everyone you also then have to admit the SOTA can't progress because there's no viable economic model - anytime you make an advance in the SOTA someone "just sets up a side project" and/or steals your model or w/e.
The US SOTA losing just means the SOTA has to be equal for everyone or the US is ahead - you can't have it both ways. Progress is practically impossible because you can't make money and you can't obtain a lead so nobody will do any work since their work will just be immediately utilized by someone else.
If what you are proposing here is true, then China is permanently behind. There isn't an economic model to obtain a "lead", yet the American companies get to just take all the work that Chinese companies do (until they go bankrupt not making money) and add it to their lead.
> The productive answer is THEY ARE ALSO BEING eaten alive.
Well you can just run them out of business then. If they spend any money you just spend more until they can't make money and close up shop. Or is someone going to subsidize them indefinitely?
The economics of these arguments that the US SOTA companies are just going to go bankrupt because of cheaper models is something I just don't find compelling. I've been trying. I debate these things so I can learn, but I'm just not seeing a coherent argument on the topic.
I don't think all of these tech companies and investors are stupid. Greedy to a large extent and some will lose their hats? Absolutely. Stupid? I don't think so. Worst case is all the infra is still useful.
No their argument is that the existence of a worse quality cheaper product will eat too much of the market for the SOTA company, making the SOTA company less profitable (not necessarily unprofitable) because the number of people who need/want the quality difference supplied by the SOTA product aren't enough to pay to sustain the extra resources required to supply the next iteration of the better product or even if they are then they are not enough to get a respectable ROI on the current investment.
>SOTA can also stop developing and spending on SOTA and just use a cheaper model
Yes, and they will be forced to (if the market shapes out as above) but the point is that then the company won't be getting the returns that justify the valuation being talked about in the IPO and will likely never return the amount of money that has already been invested in it even if it is a profitable company. i.e. If I spend $20,000,000 making a lemonade stand that is a successful best in class stand and it nets me $50 profit a day then it doesn't matter how that as far as lemonade stands go that it's a pretty amazing example. I am effectively never going to see that 20 million again let alone a real profit.
They're not arguing that these SOTA companies aren't better, they're arguing that there won't be a decent return on investment let alone justifying further investment and means everyone will be taking a huge haircut on what is already invested (with the possible exception of early investors who take the bag with the IPO when it inevitably succeeds based on people disagreeing with this evaluation and thinking it a good investment or simply because of index funds being required to buy in)
The only examples we see, open source software, for example, shows that the major market players still make a boatload of money. Anyone off the street can download OpenOffice and it's the "worse quality cheaper product", but Microsoft makes hundreds of millions of dollars (estimate) on Office and that's what everyone uses.
What compelling evidence do you have that things will be different now?
To your example of open source not eating Offices lunch how about I point out linux verses unix, or MS visual sourcesafe vs git, commercial web servers vs apache/nginx, commercial PBXs vs Asterix?
edit: I just realised that all of those examples were for more technical software (with the possible exception of linux). So things to also consider: does anthropic win in the more technical space against open weight? does it win in the less technical space against go with the flow bundled copilot?
Cheaper models break financing SOTA pace, PRC budget fast follow currently is catching up. If SOTA slows/stalls slower SOTA pace = instead of PRC 6 months behind, they're 3 months behind, or period of overlapping parity before US SOTA grabs lead again for a few months. There may not be economic model to maintain durable lead, which SOTA economic doom spiral condition. Now if PRC fast follow couldn't close gap, i.e if PRC only fast following due to distillation and US SOTA can technically prevent PRC fast follow, and extend gap then maybe exorbitant SOTA spend sustainable. If not sustainable everyone moves to cheaper cycles. This an issue if SOTA cannot be done on the cheap, which also true for PRC, but PRC not doing expensive SOTA, they're doing cheap fast follow.
>why would AI be any different
It's not, someone going to grab big share of AI... but that someone has to be competitive enough for exquisite lock in, and frankly with enterprise reducing SOTA AI spend due to SOTA AI costs, current SOTA AI ain't it. See last paragraph for hopium.
> someone going to subsidize them indefinitely
Yes. Same way Alphabet/Meta can subsidize AI, China has their Baba and tech giants with alternate revenue streams to subsidize AI, even if not SOTA, and geopolitics will make sure US cannot run PRC AI out of business in PRC and vice versa. But geopolitics not stopping PRC companies running other PRC companies out of business, same with US companies running US companies out of business. In this case host countries tech giants with high margin businesses squeezing sole play AI labs. It's just US SOTA ANT/OAI getting murdered is massive economic contagion risk for US vs Zai/kimi not for PRC.
> find compelling
This really not complicated, last couple years, US SOTA labs signed 100s of billions of compute based on projected demand that they could monopolize enough demand to finance compute capitalization. This not stupid investor prior, because their only competitor, PRC was export controlled, compute constrained and shouldn't close gap. But PRC closed gap, made models good enough and architecture efficient / cheap enough so other players, including those in US, can capture large % of demand WHILE using fraction of compute. SOTA labs now looking at margin compression, losing share to good enough competitors and obligatory (now excessive) capitalization. This bad combo for current US SOTA economics. The numbers suggest this is what is happening. There is chance demand increases past projections and extra SOTA compute will be boon, but again, we are seeing most profitable SWE enterprise curtail not increase demand.
> Worst case is all the infra is still useful
IMO this actually best case for US medium term favour, but also another strike against CURRENT US SOTA. Reality is current SOTA is grossly overpaying for compute / AI premium. Even if OAI or ANT dies, their compute can be picked up for pennies on dollar and as long as PRC behind on compute there is potential for cheaper future US SOTA economics from cheaper hardware since crash will lead hardware price regress towards mean. But that boon is for the next guy.
Here's the US hopium: post current US SOTA crash, there is potentially curve where US has so much cheap discount compute, because current SOTA taking the haircut, and where PRC has not much compute, that US will have sustainable SOTA prospects, i.e. the world where US pays $1 for shovels instead of $10 and can buy $10000 worth of shovels while PRC can only buy $100. That's feasible after current exorbitant SOTA economics bleeds it's patients to death and the next US SOTA host get the transplants and lighter balance sheet, i.e. web 2.0 for SOTA AI. Incidentally more likely "winner" of AI... if I had to guess assuming incumbent FAANG doesn't just snatch up ANT/OAI if they explode - new player/entrant who are near SOTA and eventually SOTA but is priced more competitive than AI 1.0 SOTA, that enterprise will gladly pay for since not at current exorbitant rates that's causing enterprise to bail, but it will be fine because AI 2.0 SOTA can be sustained from 3T TAM instead of 30T TAM. Now PRC might still be able to fast follow, but US SOTA economics completely different if cheap hardware = US premium SOTA cost only 2x more than commodity PRC tokens instead of 20x.
No they don't.
> PRC budget fast follow currently is catching up.
If it is then your argument falls apart because by catching up on funding in any way disproves your theory about pricing and investment. China and Chinese companies can't invest because to do so is self-defeating, someone else already has a cheaper model and therefore any additional marginal investment will result in a large financial loss. You can't have it both ways. The same economic rules apply for both countries even if the CCP wants to pretend that they don't.
> and geopolitics will make sure US cannot run PRC AI out of business in PRC and vice versa
At least for my part I've never espoused that this will happen. Both countries will pursue and invest in state of the art AI and the crappy models mostly don't matter.
> This really not complicated
It actually is pretty complicated - and the points you are putting forth don't match your conclusions as I highlighted in my previous post.
> IMO this actually best case for US medium term favour,
Well it's not, it's actually just the base worst case. The best case will be something like an insurmountable lead in AI. If investors lose money, who cares, they still bought a lot of physical products and built infrastructure. For the US it's totally fine - boom/bust cycles are normal and fine.
> if I had to guess assuming incumbent FAANG doesn't just snatch up ANT/OAI if they explode
Provide some predictions then. You're just throwing things at the wall. OpenAI is going to "explode" and then Google is going to buy them or something? Based on what? Show the pricing and the economics.
Yes they do. See how easy being flippant is.
> disproves
No, I'm being logically consistent, the same economic rules at work is PRC fast follows on the cheap which gives them net pricing advantage, which in context of everyone bleeding money just means they lose less money. Losing money is structurally fine, i.e. forever subsidies for some companies, like tech giants with alternative revenue, it's lethal for pure play AI, which US SOTA are. Economics of bleeding the same, US SOTA just bleeding much more without a tourniquet. This not "ReeeSeeSeePee" economics, this just economics.
> crappy models mostly don't matter
Well yeah, but we're not talking about crappy models. We're talk about good enough models. Good enough models that siphon SOTA demand and force SOTA discount which otherwise funded/set pace for SOTA development. Good enough competition entirely matters.
> don't match your conclusions as I highlighted
Yes because I'm rejecting/arguing against your points, hence they don't match, by design.
> insurmountable lead in AI. If investors lose money, who cares
Well that's another tier of hopium. Back to reality, if you want US AI to lead, the setup you want is for US SOTA AI to be sustainable, you want OAI, ANT dollars to stretch as far as it can. You want Nvidia, ASML, SKHynix i.e. all the component makers whose margins exploded to revert to mean so US labs can buy more compute per $ while shovel makers rub pennies. What you don't want is hardware makers soaking up generational $$$ from investors and tech company warchests in mother of all tier boom/bust cycles that would starve future booms. Like yes, the shovels can be snatched up for pennies eventually (lets just optimistically entirely ignore compute depreciation curve), but its' fundamental gross misallocation, you should optimize for SOTA AI sustainability, not shovel maker tax (who are already sustainable) bloat. If ANT only needed to spend 300B instead of 900B for compute obligations for same amount of compute because Nvidia+co only making 40% margins instead of 80%, then convo around US SOTA sustainability would be very different. Maybe 900B was fair price if unassailable US lead given, but good enough Chinese models makes US SOTA 900B brittle vs 300B survivable.
> Provide some predictions then.
ANT/OAI balance sheet will be obviously non-sustainable in 1-2 years. They will slow down frontier spending to balance book. They will fail and either political capture to be too big to fail, or be bought out by other US tech majors.Based on ANT operating margin going from positive to negative (i.e. lose for every dollar spent) for SpaceX compute commitments which is just first tranch/preview of what will happen for other 800b on horizon. Based on the market they thought they were going to capture, they no longer fully capture and can't capture at price they though (i.e. 80% reduction in API pricing recently - because they got deepseeked). So their TAM is smaller than they thought, their margins are being compressed faster they they thought, but they still have to spend/pay shovel makers like it hasn't. How about you show some math, where's the $$$ going to come from. We know their largest consumers are enterprise who are cutting back. Where are they going to find 100s of billion year year. Name high value niches they'll capture... frontier math, replacing underpaid TAs? There is chance some unforseen massive premium demand pops up and SOTA compute commitments become boon, but not obvious what on horizon.
This final reply, leave your prediction history can judge.
E: append to clarify, core prediction is ANT/OAI can/will go through IPO / motions but won't survive to be US SOTA champions medium term on financials, i.e. their at some point fulfilling 900b compute obligations it will become evident economics will kill them, but this does not mean they could not survive with non market shenanigans like regulatory capture. The related thesis being regardless which path, i.e. market failure, or regulatory capture, their balance sheet after compute obligations rack up will force slow down in SOTA development/pace due to their specific balance sheet conditions. Second related is AI crash = AI premium evaporates = AI hardware price regress towards mean, and new US upstarts can take over cheaper SOTA.
> This final reply, leave your prediction history can judge.
with your prediction being:
> ANT/OAI balance sheet will be obviously non-sustainable in 1-2 years. They will slow down frontier spending to balance book. They will fail and either political capture to be too big to fail, or be bought out by other US tech majors.
My prediction is that both OpenAI and Anthropic will IPO, slow down some spending on infrastructure, but will otherwise be continuing on their current growth trajectories while other major US tech firms slow down their own spending. I'm not sure about their valuations but I'm not sure that really matters. Neither will be bankrupt or purchased in 1-2 years.
I also predict that China will continue to lock down its own AI companies and further halt export of models, while both American and Chinese startups continue to carve out niches for special-purpose models which continue to be behind the bleeding edge. Enterprises will increasingly spend on compute and tokens, sometimes will use low-quality models for random things, but more companies will be embracing and using AI. I also predict that China will increase spend on state of the art because the leading general purpose models will be much more useful than we think they will, and they are primarily limited by interface and workflows today. In other words, we haven't seen anything yet.
Though I'd like to add a caveat which I'm sure you'd agree is fair and I would grant you the same, these predictions would be predicated on nothing crazy happening (like a war over Taiwan).
Good chat, enjoyed it even if we disagree!