Sounds like a good time travel story: the mission is to go back in time and plant a single uranium cube, to be found ~80 years hence, to convince people that the German bomb project was doomed so that– ahh, but let's not spoil it! :)
Happening again with Russia.
The two cities were already on a "to be bombed" list and were the 73rd and 74th Japanese cities to be utterly destroyed by bombing.
So, Yes - they were literally used to test the bombs.
The "and make sure no such war happens again" is more of a post WWII retcon of the Cold War era.
They certainly killed less people than the bombing that had already occurred - the destruction of Tokyo alone likely killed more people than either atomic bomb.
There's no real consensus in the alternative history conjecture space, and no way to resolve the theories floated, Gar Alperovitz (for one example) made the argument that
* that Japan was already defeated at the time the decision to use the bomb was made, and that US intelligence already knew this;
* that Japan had been suing for peace and was ready to surrender without an invasion;
* that the real reason the bomb was used was so to demonstrate its power to the Soviet Union, in an attempt to exert more influence on them in the postwar;
* and that Japanese Emperor’s surrender statement invoked the bomb only as a politically-acceptable “excuse” for his people, when actually he surrendered primarily because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
These claims are more about politics than anything. Its an attempt to retcon history to vilify the US. The Japanese had never been invaded and that was a huge point of pride. They were training the civilians for a guerrilla war. Just because you can find a person in the Japanese government who wanted to surrender at that point (and there were) doesn't mean that's the decision that would have been taken.
PS That 3rd point is especially specious...if it were true, no 2nd bomb would have been used. PPS Stuff like this is why historians don't like nor will engage with hypotheticals or the alternative history folks. Its clearly politically motivated, not a good faith attempt to understand history.
An attempt to vilify ... the side that eagerly deployed nuclear weapons on civilian targets? I'm from the US and I'm not someone who is blind to pragmatism but your argument here just seems completely absurd to me. We clearly committed an atrocity with somewhere between minimal to no legitimate justification.
Then again, after seeing the adjacent comment about avoiding soviet involvement it occurs to me that perhaps we inadvertently did them a favor in a roundabout way. Japan probably would have lost a lot more than the kuril islands otherwise.
>Stimson wrote in his diary afterwards that after his briefing, Truman felt “the terrible responsibility that such destruction placed upon us here and himself.” [1]
[1] “Memorandum of Conference with the President, August 8, 1945 at 10:45am,” in Stimson diary (8 August 1945), Henry Lewis Stimson Papers (MS 465), Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library.
You can certainly choose to believe that the decision makers were eager to use nukes and didn’t consider other paths, but you have to acknowledge that opinion is coming entirely from your own intuition and intentionally excludes all contrary evidence.
"Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor [actually from the Foreign Secretary] asking for peace. Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan [A-bomb] appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time."
And on top of this, the Japanese had been negotiating their surrender with the ostensibly neutral USSR hoping to get more favorable conditions with their assistance. And the US had been secretly intercepting these cables and knew all about it. [2] And on top of this the US had also already created another secret agreement with the USSR such that they would declare war on Japan on August 8th, which would end any hope at all for Japan. We nuked them on August 6th, and then again on the 9th.
It was completely unnecessary.
[1] - https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/28466-document-47-trumans...
[2] - https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/28458-document-39b-magic-...
The diary is full of revealing quotes like "Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor [actually from the Foreign Secretary] asking for peace. Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan [A-bomb] appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time."
For some timeline the US had secretly arranged for Russia to declare war on Japan on August 8th. We nuked them first on August 6th, and then again on the 9th. The goal was to get them to surrender to the US before the Soviets made significant inroads in Japan.
Do you think what they reveal is the truth? Was the diary meant to be published and become "a source"? Was Truman informed about everything important going on in the US? About the reality (the truth) of the Manhattan Project? Did he even need to know? Wasn't it preferable for him to simply believe in order to play his role?
Just some questions to ponder as to the quality of this source and what can be deduced from it.
No one was eager. This sort of lie destroys discussion. This site is only about discussion, so please don't keep trying to destroy the only thing the site is about.
You may not agree with the argument, fair enough. But shutting down a discussion in such a manner is a no no. What you do is taking a moral stance against an argument you don't agree with.
There are no moral winners in war.
But it remains true that if Japan or Germany had had the bomb, they'd have bombed civilians without compunction, discussion, or regret.
It took two bombs to get Japan to surrender. “A surrender is in play” means zilch.
We should remember further that after the second bomb was dropped AND the Soviet entry into the war AND the emperor specifically ordering them to surrender the militarists in the Japanese government still attempted to carry out a coup to stop the surrender and continue the war.
The Japanese would not agree to that
They might have agreed to a cease fire and reduced overseas possessions. A defeat, but not surrender
Make up your own mind of continuing the war to enforce total surrender
Also, people who are ready to surrender don't need to be nuked twice.
The question remains whether in fact Japan "needed" to be nuked even once - it's unknown whether the ongoing city by city destruction would have resolved WWII.
Further, did they "need" to be nuked a second time so quickly (within three days)? That second nuke was not to force a surrender (just as the first wasn't) - the two bombings were two live tests of two separate weapon designs untested in the field of war.
Apparently so. Most people will run up the white flag after being nuked once, you see.
It was important to make them think that we had a whole stockpile of them. Otherwise, twice might not have been enough.
- Heinrich Himmler
“I am persuaded that this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands in so much innocent blood; and that it will tend to prevent the effusion of blood for the future, which are the satisfactory grounds to such actions, which otherwise cannot but work remorse and regret.”
- Oliver Cromwell
“It was no longer a question of merely dispersing the crowd, but one of producing a sufficient moral effect, from a military point of view, not only on those who were present, but more especially throughout the Punjab.”
- Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer
- kstenerud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions_...
Plenty of the survivors of the nuclear bombings and the fire bombings writings went on to be published. You can read them yourselves but generally speaking the fire bombings were way, way, worse.
The theory makes no sense
The things that happened: (a) Hiroshima bombed on Aug 6th, (b) USSR declared war on Japan and invaded Manchuria on Aug 8th, and (c) as the Cabinet gathered on Aug 9th to discuss the terms of surrender, Nagasaki was bombed.
Here's Yozo Kudo, general secretary of the Japanese National Association for the Assessment of Air Raids and War Damage:
————————
INTERVIEW: Why U.S. air raids continued until day of Japan’s surrender — THE ASAHI SHIMBUN² — August 14, 2023 — Yozo Kudo, 73, secretary-general of the national association of groups recording air raids and war damage
The United States carried out air raids from Aug. 14 to early Aug. 15. More than 1,000 aircraft, including 825 B-29 bombers, attacked targets nationwide. It is believed to be the largest number of aircraft deployed for (a string of) air raids during the Pacific War.
Q: Which cities were attacked?
A: Targets included Osaka, where Osaka Arsenal and Kyobashi Station were bombed, Akita’s Tsuchizaki district, Isesaki in Gunma Prefecture, Kumagaya in Saitama Prefecture, and Iwakuni and Hikari in Yamaguchi Prefecture.
When small-scale bombings are included, about 30 locations were attacked. Many people were killed. But casualty counts vary, and the exact number is unknown.
Q: Why were air raids conducted on the day of the surrender or the day before?
A: Japan’s delay in accepting the Potsdam Declaration was in the background.
The government informed the Allied powers on Aug. 10 that it would accept the declaration on condition that the emperor’s rights of sovereignty would not be changed. But arguments within the government and military became tangled over a response from the Allied powers. Some said the emperor’s status was not guaranteed, and an agreement was not reached for some time.
The United States on Aug. 10 stopped air raids on urban areas by B-29 bombers to prevent an adverse impact on peace negotiations. The following day, air raids by B-29 bombers were suspended altogether.
The United States once waited for an end of peace negotiations, although it continued some air raids by other bombers. But Japan did not produce its conclusion for some time, and the United States decided to carry out large-scale air raids on Aug. 14-15 to urge Japan to accept the Potsdam Declaration.
Henry Arnold, commander of the U.S. Army Air Forces, had wanted the grandest possible finale, according to a history of warfare by B-29 bombers.
The U.S. military initially considered an air raid on Tokyo, which would have a strong psychological impact on the Japanese government, but eventually decided to target several areas outside Tokyo.
Japan decided to accept the Potsdam Declaration at a meeting in the presence of the emperor on Aug. 14. But it took time before U.S. military officials on the ground were informed of Japan’s decision, and air raids continued until the early hours of Aug. 15.
————————
That doesn't give a clear answer as to the motivation of these anewed US terror bombing raids against civilians. There is no military reason, as with all previous attacks on civilians. Just sadism? Or maybe the raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not impressive enough?
If any documents were ever created about this debate, they've probably been destroyed, and those involved have taken it to the grave with themselves. So I suppose technically we can never know for sure. But I think the cynical view is far more well supported. Or at least I think the cynical aspects were the majority of the logic behind it. And it was not only about control of Japan but also about sending a message to the USSR as the US undoubtedly saw the outlines of a new West-East world order emerging after WW2. And all the way up until the 80s [1] our dominant political philosophy was that we could win by intimidation and demonstrations of force, nuclear in particular.
------------
Wow, loving LLMs when digging into topics now a days. GPT was able to direct me to Truman's diary entries which are public record. [2] I take back the weasel wording above. Truman himself was quite clear on his intention and desires:
"Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor [actually from the Foreign Secretary] asking for peace. Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan [A-bomb] appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time."
- President Harry S. Truman, July 18th 1945
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Prophet#Impact
[2] - https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/28466-document-47-trumans...
That was particularly painful for Churchill to accept at the end when he had to hand over Poland to Stalin. Poland was the reason Britain officially entered WW2 in 1939
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
> We and France are to-day, in fulfillment of our obligations, going to the aid of Poland, who is so bravely resisting this wicked and unprovoked attack upon her people. We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace, but a situation in which no word given by Germany's ruler could be trusted and no people or country could feel themselves safe had become intolerable. And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will all play your part with calmness and courage
(Chamberlain, Sep 3, 1939)
Stalin was fully aware well before Potsdam, Kurchatov was already working on it for years.
eg: (one of several) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs
Post Cold War declassified information states that the Russians freely acknowledged that Fuchs gave them the fission bomb.