Comment by mc32 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mc32 | Hacker News Reader

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Yes and no.

On the surface Japan can seem like it has some things in common (comparable) with the West; however, it's more or less comparing superficial manifestations.

1. Japan while you will see 'international' this and that everywhere and people are taught English from an early age, Japan is very insular (geographically, obviously and mentally) and inward looking (provincial not reflective) and hardly international. People (employees) in the international depts can't expect to rise much within an org. --with few exceptions). All talk and no walk.

2. Japan is very xenophobic (not just a little like Italy might be or France might be about undocumented Roma or Albanians). This could be traced back to how Japan dealt with foreigners (and trade) back in the Edo period as exemplified by Dejima island. Foreigners (dutch) were relegated to an island and had to be back by sundown and could not leave. This attitude has not changed in over a hundred years. 3rd generation Koreans are still considered foreigners (and they must assume a Japanese name, and oddly none the less considered foreign). The foreign population in Japan is actually on the wane for various reasons (economic and also people just get tired of the politics)

3. Japanese industry found their stride in the late 60s; however, few have revisited their assumptions, systems, technologies, methods, etc. For an example, look at their film industry. Almost complete implosion due to stagnation.

4. Conformity. While on the surface these niche 'diverse' groups would seem to indicate break with conformity, it does not. As someone observed, these movements and subcultures are de-coupled from politics, completely.

That's just the beginning. There are many other reasons a 1:1 comparison with the West is not helpful.

There is a kind of parallel withe the US. It's the maturity regression. However, while many in the US recognize and decry the eternal adolescence of American adults (viz toilet humor, frat culture), in Japan it's rather infantilization (viz Hello Kitty, stuffed animals, Pokemon --whose main audience are adults, not children).

Edit: I guess what I mean is that one would extrapolate Japan onto the West at one's own expense (of understanding). In this agree with Japan --they are unique, in this regard.

3rd generation Koreans are still considered foreigners (and they must assume a Japanese name, and oddly none the less considered foreign).

They don't have to assume a Japanese name. Most do, probably the legal alias they have used all their lives when speaking in Japanese. East Asian countries do not have the same attitudes to names as unique identifiers, invariant across languages as western countries do. The third generation Koreans you refer to are Zainichi Koreans who don't hold Japanese nationality.

However, the Japanese Diet has not yet passed a resolution regarding this matter [Zainich Koreans voting rights in Japanese elections] despite several attempts by a section within Liberal Democratic Party of Japan to do so, and there is considerable public and political opposition against granting voting rights to those who have not yet adopted Japanese nationality. Instead, the requirements for naturalization has been steadily lowered for Zainichi to the point that only criminal records or affiliation to North Korea would be a hindrance for naturalisation.

I'm not saying that Japan isn't very xenophobic but if they want Japanese citizenship most Zainichi Koreans can have it with relatively little difficulty.

It just seems incongruous to me that someone who is third or fourth generation born in Japan could be considered 'foreign'. It's not as if the parents were 'illegally' in Japan. (anyone illegal is pretty much promptly sent home --with few exceptions of people involved with crime syndicates).

It's not even ironic that zainichi just means someone 'residing/staying' temporarily, ie. not considered permanent -but they've been born and lived in Japan all their lives, as well as their parents and grandparents.

It seems incongruous to me as well but it's not my country so my opinion is of at most academic interest. I'm not that interested in the literal meaning or etymology of words. In the same way that Charlize Theron is not an African-American but Morgan Freeman is, Zainichi Korean means persons of Korean nationality who have been born and raised in Japan, not Koreans resident in Japan who were born in Korea.

Charlize Theron is South African American, nationality-wise. In terms of Continental designation, South Africans of any ethnicity (Indian, European, African, ancestry call themselves 'African'. It's only outside Africa that it might seem odd. I guess the flipside is how many/most? Egyptians consider the fact they're in Africa incidental.

Zainichi people of Korean ancestry are not Korean nationals. Korea (South) can't call them up to serve in the military for their compulsory army duty. It's like saying 4th generation Americans of Italian or Mexican descent aren't 'Americans' if their parents were not officially naturalized Americans. Zainichi for this intent means 'guest' Korean.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2008/12/16/issues/youn...

Zainichi Koreans can get North or South Ko

rean passports. They are exempt from military service unless they move to Korea. Connotations and denotations of language change, zainichi means temporary and chosen means korea but zainichi chosen refers to born and raised on Japan people with Korean citizenship or an entitlement to same, not people studying abroad or similar.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zainichi_Korean

See footnote 1

I'm not suggesting a 1:1 comparison, and am intimately familiar with Japanese culture, and being a foreigner within it despite holding citizenship. Consider, for example, the parallel situation of US gun culture, where a relatively small number of consumers are the main driver of sales, which continue to rise is inverse proportion to the overall popularity of guns.

being a foreigner within it despite holding citizenship

Wait... are you one of those exceeedingly rare Japanese citizens who have no Japanese blood ancestry or are you just foreign-born Japanese?

And I do agree with you. Japan is a leading indicator in many respects.

By marriage for a number of years. It doesn't make me an expert but it did give me a first hand perspective.

Sorry to butt in - is that " no Japanese blood ancestry" like Arnie has no American blood ancestry (ie is a naturalised citizen).

Is that exceedingly rare? I am surprised, I would assume the Japanese equivalent of a green card would be highly sought after for much the same reasons

The timeframe for getting citizenship in Japan is quite long, and from what I've heard from all those I know who have it, largely not worth it - if you don't look Japanese, you will generally continue to be treated as not Japanese. Landlords who refuse to rent to foreigners on the basis that you might book it out of the country will still not rent to you, and customs/immigration workers will still consider you a foreigner. It also just potentially introduces you to a new set of bureaucratic problems, all with forms that simply don't account for the possibility of a non-Japanese name.

Japan considers citizenship to be via decent. It doesn't matter where you are born, unless your parents are Japanese you are not either. Naturalisation is an option - about 10,000 Koreans in Japan become citizens every year; out of 600,000. Obviously, it's not an easy process.

If a child would otherwise be stateless, then they will acquire Japanese citizenship if they are born in Japan. But since Korea has a similar system, Korean children aren't stateless, they are Koreans.

This also has exceptions. People of Japanese ancestry, not mixed, or anything, from Brazil and Peru, are treated as 'foreigners' just the same, even if they look like any other Japanese, with the exception, their families migrated abroad and that they may have picked up some South American manners and such along the way.

Citizenship is not the equivalent of an American green card. In Japan, that would be Permanent Residency (永住権).

A person with no Japanese ancestry becoming a citizen is exceedingly rare. It does happen, but not very often, and the process is onerous.

Applying for PR is more common, but still a burdensome procedure and is ostensibly only granted to those who either have a direct connection to Japanese family, either through ancestry or marriage (especially marriage resulting in procreation), or who have achieved some kind of major conventionally recognized accomplishment (e.g., winning the Nobel Prize):

http://www.moj.go.jp/content/000096661.pdf

Jumping from the Edo period to the 60s does miss a rather important point in the development in Japan and Korea's identity - the Empire of Japan. In 1910, the Empire of Japan (who were still "good" guys - allies of the British Empire), annexed the failing Empire of Korea. To unify the empire, they used a "pure bloodline" propaganda myth - Koreans and Japanese were all pure-blooded warriors from the same stock. After they split up politically, the myths diverged, but never really died (certainly not in North Korea, where the propaganda never stopped).

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