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Comment by smutticus | Hacker News Reader

>Whenever someone talks about the need for socialized medicine because "otherwise people would go bankrupt", remember it is the socialization of medicine that caused costs to rise to the point where people would go bankrupt.

Because there are thousands of Canadians every year that go bankrupt because of health care costs. Your argument doesn't even begin to make sense.

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Because there are thousands of Canadians every year that go bankrupt because of health care costs.

Actually, there are. They go the US to get care that's not offered in Canada. The care here is about as good as former soviet bloc countries. If there was a chance that an illness such as cancer could kill me, I'd get out of Canada in a heartbeat and embrace poverty if it meant keeping my life.

It's just not true that large numbers of Canadians go to the US for healthcare. You need to supply evidence of this. The numbers are vanishingly small.

The numbers are vanishingly small

Well, compared to what?

The odds of having your private health insurance rescinded in the US is also very small -- but it's quite likely among people who suddenly rack up big health care costs.

Similarly, if you compare Canada-to-US medical tourists to the Canadian population, I'm sure it's amazingly tiny. But how does it compare to the people of means who have a medical procedure denied by the Canadian system?

(I don't fault Canada for denying care in some cases. Sometimes it's not worth it. But the Canadian system would be better if people were still allowed to top off the denied care with their own dollars and didn't need to leave the country to get it.)

When someone says you need to back up with numbers then it does seem a bit silly to ask for numbers as a counter argument. :)

Well, I can't find any canadians who don't want their system. I can't find any (non-partisan) news sources complaining of a even a small number of people who would opt out of the Canadian system. Tommy Douglas, the founder of the system, is repeatedly voted the most popular Canadian in history... And...anecdotally every Canadian friend of mine loves to likes the system. I'd love to see some, any, hard evidence that the Canadian system is such a disaster that they're fleeing to the US to escape its tyranny.

I live in western Quebec, home to two of the worst hospitals in the country (those in Hull and Gatineau). Getting a family doctor here requires years of waiting, and many will go across the river and pay out of pocket to see a doctor in Ottawa. You'll no doubt find some Canadians who live in areas where things are working out pretty well. People in the US don't often realize that the Canadian system is not monolithic, and is based more on your province, and sometimes where you are within a given province.

As I said to your sibling comment, it's helpful to hear of your experience.

My wife, who is Canadian, used to love the health care system in Canada. After actually relying on it, she came to despise it. We left Canada and came to the US precisely for health care for my son (who is also Canadian). He received more care in the first 2 weeks here then he ever received in Canada. She now sings the US health cares praises.

I could go on and on about the abuse my son received at the hands of the Canadian health care system, but I'll just say that I hate the system. At every step of the way, despite doing everything we could, my son suffered because of the system.

A part of me understands it's because it was Quebec, but Quebec is an example of how the Canadian system fails, and fails hard.

A part of me feels as if it was my fault. I should have moved sooner, when we were first lied to. But we figured if we played by the rules, things would work out. We were wrong.

So no. I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent that abuse from coming to the US. And if it did come, I'd leave. I will not let my family suffer like that again.

sorry to hear about that. Your comment is very helpful as most, in fact, all Canadians I know are from big cities, and so I now have a richer set of anecdotes... ;)

I'll ignore for a second that you asked the parent for evidence, and then proceeded to make a statement without providing any evidence yourself.

>> The numbers are vanishingly small

Maybe as a % of the overall Canadian population, perhaps. What about the % of critically ill? People with cancer? My aunt is an oncology nurse at one of the best hospitals in the nation, and she sees a lot of Canadians who come to the US for treatment that they can't get at home.

So yes, people with the flu or a broken arm probably aren't flocking here for care. People with serious illnesses? You bet they're coming here.

But don't you think that if it were common for people with serious illnesses to come to the US, we'd see much more made of it than we do from those with a large vested interest in noting the influx?

Well, they do: http://blog.heritage.org/2010/02/09/the-canadian-patients%E2...

I think you can do better than Rush Limbaugh's favorite right wing advocacy group to back up your opinions.

Here's a study that puts the numer of Canadians using the US healthcare system at about 0.61%: http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/3/19.full.html

That's EXACTLY what i was looking for, thanks!

I wasn't claiming that wasn't biased. It was stated that nobody was talking about it, but I don't think that's the case. I've heard it since the health care debates started in the U.S.

As for that study, I'm a little concerned that they only looked at a handful of states, and this little line at the bottom:

"The authors acknowledge financial support from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (formerly the Medical Research Council of Canada) for this research."

My guess: both your source and mine are biased and flawed, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

That's a peer reviewed academic journal. Even if the authors have a bias, it's not comparable to the bias of a right wing advocacy group that gets financial support from the Koch Brothers.

"as good as former soviet bloc countries"... really.. ?

How many Americans (like Sarah Palin) are going the other way across the border?

According to one study [1], only 0.61% of Canadians are going to the US for healthcare. And you have to consider that that the Canadian government pays for much of that care in the US. I'd imagine that if things were as bad as you claim, that number would be a bit higher

[1] http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/in...

Excuse me, what was that about Sarah Palin?

"we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/sarah-palin/740955...

> And you have to consider that that the Canadian government pays for much of that care in the US.

It does not pay a dime.

"Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care."

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

> If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise),

Oh, yes. You try getting that through. It doesn't happen. It's something people trot out to say "see, everything is paid for" but the reality is far from different. And try to get that through for long term care.

And you want something else: "not experimental" That's not determined by the medical establishment. Rather, it's done by the government. So, even if every medical professional says otherwise, real treatments can be deemed experimental.

So no, the Canadian government does not pay for much of that treatment.

Don't confuse an effective single-payer system for what we have or what 'Obamacare' (I hate that word) is giving us.

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