I think it is more likely that Congress will dismantle the military industrial complex.
I think it is more likely that Congress will dismantle the military industrial complex.
Really? I've always paid with credit card.
> Questions about how to pay their taxes
A "business as enormous as Amazon" probably has a horde of accountants to answer those questions.
> what taxes should be paid on BTC transactions
The same as on any other transactions in non-USD currency perhaps?
Most Bitcoin Processors give confirmation fairly quickly. The customer doesn't have to wait 10 minutes.
Taxes shouldn't be too big of an issue. They just get reported like accepting any other foreign currency.
As for line of credit... you should check out Ripple.com
By selling at a loss. We are not talking about a startup that outprices Amazon by actually doing something technically superior to cut costs, we are talking about a startup that is trying to use a loss leader strategy. Nothing to see here, it's a well known tactic.
"Most Bitcoin Processors give confirmation fairly quickly. The customer doesn't have to wait 10 minutes."
Last I checked, it was 10-30 minutes. More importantly, isn't using a payment processor defeating the whole point here? What advantage does Amazon get from using a BTC payment processor over Visa? Were we trying to avoid convincing Visa to become a Bitcoin processor?
"Taxes shouldn't be too big of an issue. They just get reported like accepting any other foreign currency."
Bitcoin is not a foreign currency. In all likelihood, Amazon would have to report taxes on BTC transactions as if they were barter transactions, which basically means reporting the dollar value of the goods being sold. That means that either Amazon has to adjust the prices of goods on a day-by-day basis to account for Bitcoin prices, or take the risk that they will wind up losing money as Bitcoin fluctuates (and without a futures market on Bitcoin, there are few ways to mitigate that risk, except the immediately convert the BTC they receive back into dollars -- so again, why bother with the extra complication?).
As for lines of credit, the point is this: issuing a loan in a deflationary currency is a massively bad idea. Deflation makes loans harder to repay over time, and at an accelerating rate. Amazon would have to keep adjusting their interest rate on BTC lines of credit to stave off the possibility of a disaster, which would only make the credit more difficult to utilize. This is widely understood by economists, and it is among the more important reasons that governments work hard to prevent their currencies from deflating.
Transaction times would be irrelevant for Amazon as they could tell customers their order is placed with zero confirmations (a few seconds), and then check for more confirmations before shipping. There is already a delay of hours or even days between when a customer orders and when they pay because credit cards are charged when the order ships.
>and what taxes should be paid on BTC transactions
I would guess the same taxes paid on other non-USD transactions. Amazon already deals with many non-USD currencies.
>Amazon issues lines of credit to their customers
I don't think this applies to most orders/customers. Amazon could choose not to offer lines of credit in BTC.
> only a fool would issue a line of credit in a currency that has built-in deflation.
Is backwards. Deflation is bad for borrowers, not creditors. This should be self evident; in periods of deflation, one unit of currency can buy more tomorrow than it can today. As a borrower, you are paying a second interest rate.
Further, deflation and inflation are only damaging when they occur unpredictably. Predictable amounts of either can easily be built into the interest rate of the transaction.
"deflation and inflation are only damaging when they occur unpredictably. Predictable amounts of either can easily be built into the interest rate of the transaction."
The problem here is that as the economy expands, the rate of deflation increases if no new currency can be added to the system (as is the case with Bitcoin). As the economy contracts, issuing a loan is risky due to the economic contraction. Expansions and contractions of an economy are basically unpredictable; there are a few vague patterns here and there, but in general predicting economic booms and busts is difficult (if you could do it, you would be very rich very fast).
Issuing a loan in a deflationary currency is asking for trouble.
I honestly wish that Nakamoto had consulted an economist before creating Bitcoin. A system with a modest rate of built-in inflation makes far more sense than Bitcoin's deflationary issue scheme.
Probably the most practical way to actually change the policy is to create an alternate 'bitcoin-2' network with a better (inflationary) policy. You could even allow transactions from the old network into the new one thus allowing people to carry their wealth over. If everyone agreed it was better, it would happen. The challenge is more social than technical.
For now though, it doesn't matter since the current bitcoin 'fiscal policy' is fairly expansionary (bitcoins are still being generated) and will be for years, and anyway the effect of 'fiscal policy' on bitcoin value is currently dwarfed by the effects of speculation and the increasing demand for bitcoins.
Second, our economies have always grown so far, but this is not a law of nature. Our population is stabilising, and much recent growth is effectively a loan (a deflationary one?) from the environment that our kids will have to repay. It's possible that our current economic woes may even be "peak economy".
In which case a currency that cannot be inflated whenever a government/populace gets lazy might be just what we need.
In an ideal circumstance, you'd average five minutes for a confirmation anyway. Blocks are usually generated every 10 minutes or so.
Also, "ideal circumstances" do not happen in the real world. IF you want to convince Amazon to adopt Bitcoin, you need to impress them with typical and realistic circumstances.
I'm sure anyone spending more than $750 on amazon is probably happy enough waiting for two or more confirmations.
Maybe, but if I can do it without waiting by just sticking with credit cards, why wouldn't I?
"Given that double spends are reasonably expensive"
I see this being tossed around quite a bit. I am not entirely sure where this idea came from. Can you prove it, the way that ECDSA (on which Bitcoin is based) can be proved secure as a signature system? When I hear this sort of statement, it sounds a lot like, "Nobody has published any way to double spend cheaply, and I cannot think of one; therefore it must be an expensive thing to do!"
I do not mean to be insulting with that, I really would like to know why people think double spending attacks are necessarily expensive. On top of that, how do we know that a double spending attack would be more expensive than the payoff -- especially when you are dealing with a complex marketplace, where a double spending attack may be just one component of a larger scheme. Maybe the point will just be to deny another person the ability to buy something, by double-spending until the merchant is sold out of the item, or as shills in an auction to try to inflate the price (should Amazon revive its auctions system).
This reminds me of the sort of argument I had with Hushmail users back before the infamous DEA incident. Your secret key is sitting there, on their servers; they could read your mail if they wanted to or if someone had a gun to their head. People said it couldn't happen, that the key would only be in RAM for a split second, that using their Java applet solved the problem, etc. Then the DEA turned up in court with a mountain of decrypted email from Hushmail (and then, as if the entire world just wanted to aggravate me, people starting saying that PGP had security problems). Cryptography tends to be black-and-white when it comes to security: you are either secure, or you are not secure, and there is rarely anything in-between (with multiparty computation, that might be changing; people are now talking about the "covert model" and "one-bit leakage" notions of security, which are in that middle area).
> Can you prove it, the way that ECDSA (on which Bitcoin is based) can be proved secure as a signature system?
I'm not experienced in any form of crypto, so not personally, no.
How can you? If a credit card transaction can be charged back, it effectively never clears (or doesn't clear as long as the chargeback is possible, if there's a time limit on chargeback). So in any situation where you would be willing to take a possibly chargeback-able, you should be willing to take an unconfirmed bitcoin.
"Nobody has published any way to double spend cheaply, and I cannot think of one; therefore it must be an expensive thing to do!"
The fact that nobody published a cheap way to double spend is strong evidence that it's difficult and expensive to double spend.
Also it doesn't really matter if there is some obscure method to cheaply double spend, since because of its obscurity it would only affect a small number of transactions (and presumably once it is used it will be detected and made public, at which point it can be fixed).
Nonsense. Bitcoin is only a few years old. It is not nearly well-studied enough to claim that there is any good evidence that double spending is costly. Keep in mind that in the first few years of RSA, people thought that 128 bit public keys would be sufficient for centuries. Bitcoin has not received anything close to the attention RSA received from the research community, or even that attention given newer ciphers like AES.
"Also it doesn't really matter if there is some obscure method to cheaply double spend"
That is kind of like saying, "It does not really matter if there is some obscure method to crack RSA quickly."
"since because of its obscurity it would only affect a small number of transactions (and presumably once it is used it will be detected and made public, at which point it can be fixed)."
Or it might turn out that there is no fix and that the attack would work no matter what you did to Bitcoin. Maybe not confirming transactions is an inherently insecure way to do business. It is equally possible that cheap double spending attacks are impossible due to some property of Bitcoin. Right now there is no clear answer; you just have to shrug and hope for the best if you neglect to wait for confirmations.
A double-spend is costly, a chargeback has no cost. One would think the number of double-spend frauds would be lower than chargeback frauds simply because these are more difficult.