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Comment by keiferski | Hacker News Reader

I don't get it. Is it fraud because she already has enough money to pay for it, but opted to use Kickstarter instead?

How is that fraud? Is every millionaire startup founder who raises capital a fraud as well?

I think there's a fair bit of double standards here. Here's a short, by-no-means-exhaustive list of well received, wildly successful Kickstarter campaigns started by multi-millionaires who could've easily offered the funding themselves:

* Double Fine Adventure (Tim Schaefer): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-a...

* Yogventures (the Yogscast): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventu...

* Veronica Mars Project (Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-m...

* Wasteland 2 (inXile Entertainment, run by Brian Fargo): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

* Torment (2nd Kickstarter run by inXile Entertainment, before even fulfilling Wasteland 2): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-...

* Project Eternity (Obsidian Entertainment, a AAA games company, run by Chris Jones): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternit...

* Project Godus (22 Cans, run by Peter Molyneux): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus?ref...

Why a nine-year-old girl and her ostensibly well-to-do mother get called out as "fraud" but not everyone else is something I don't really understand.

I can understand why people would think this is an inappropriate use of Kickstarter (I thought the Death Star crap was annoying), but the level of righteous indignation and hyperbole on this topic is extraordinary.

Not the first time this week HN has embarrassed itself, mind.

You don't see the difference between millionaires asking for significant investment for viable products vs. a millionaire asking for $830 for her daughter's non-viable product/camp fee?

The product, like all the other games-related Kickstarter campaigns, is the completed game. The whole "my brothers were mean to me so I want to go to RPG camp to prove them wrong" is the interesting story to get people to fund it. That's just good fund-raising: don't just sell a product, sell a story.

Whether or not the product is viable or that the girl will be able to complete the game with the funding requested is solely up to the people deciding whether to back it: is a nine year old girl with no prior experience who has to get training in the meantime going to produce a compelling RPG?

It may be an unrealistic campaign, but it's not fraud.

I'd say soliciting money from others for an unrealistic campaign is tantamount to fraud.

So is Tim Schaefer's Double Fine Adventure, which is now 5 months behind schedule (and not even close to complete) and has been soliciting even more funding through its website since the Kickstarter campaign ended[1] also fraud? He created a Kickstarter campaign that turned out to be unrealistic both in time and cost.

Kickstarter campaigns are ventures, not stores[2]. Everyone involved knows that, or should know that. If you think any specific campaign is too risky, then don't back it, plain and simple. Explain why you don't think it's a realistic project. But running around saying this specific Kickstarter campaign is fraud because it was overfunded and could've been self-funded, but none of the other wildly successful campaigns are, is such a double standard.

[1]: http://www.doublefine.com/dfapay/

[2]: http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store

First off, I said tantamount to fraud and you are the one who said "it may be an unrealistic campaign". And trust me, I believe many Kickstarters are pretty much scams and frauds, not just this one. But usually, that is just due to humans' natural tendency to plan over optimistically. This case is different. It goes directly against the rules of no tuition funding projects. It misrepresents itself by claiming to be about creating a game when it is really about funding camp tuition. The original Kickstarter says she is going to camp already and this is all to prove some nebulous thing to her brothers. This is obviously an extraordinary case.

The problem is that hat the money goes into the mom's pocket and that rpg maker doesn't cost millions like examples you gave do.

She didn't ask for millions, she asked for $829 and clearly specified where the money would go. It got overfunded. That's what happens with successful Kickstarter campaigns because there are no caps.

Any of the people I mentioned could've easily fronted the amount they asked for, but they didn't, and that's fine: running a Kickstarter campaign means less personal risk, more publicity, and a chance to hit the lottery with overfunding. It's not fraud.

I don't know what the net worth of Brian Fargo is, but I would imagine a not-insignificant part of it is invested in InXile. He's also pledged 100k toward their current Kickstarter, Tides of Numemera. And I'd imagine the ratio the cost of a game to to his net worth is wildly different than the ratio of paying for your own child to attend RPG camp to Susan Wilson's net worth

I imagine a fair amount is wrapped up in inXile, but he is a millionaire several times over: he's the founder of Interplay, which went IPO in 1998 when he owned 45% of the company and he left in 2002, long before Interplay started tanking.

To be clear: I think it was a smart move for him—regardless of his net worth—to use Kickstarter, and I think it's an even smarter move—PR-wise at least—to put some of his own money into the Kickstarter (albeit in the end a bit pointless: he could've just cut that amount off the top of the asking amount). I just think it's silly to think people who can self-fund can't use it.

I figured out what bothers me about this Kickstarter- There's almost nothing about the actual "project", that is, the game.

This is all that's said about it:

"As I said in the video, I want to create an RPG that isn't too violent and isn't filled with bad words, still has a good story line & cool graphics, but has shorter cut scenes, less menus & fewer controls. And most importantly, I want a game that allows team members to face danger together and get hurt but doesn't kill team mates off & eliminate them from battle."

That's it.

There's tons and tons of stuff about...well, everything but the supposed project. The game itself is secondary, if that.

So it's hard for me to see how this is really about a project and not about sending someone to summer camp. If that's the case, it would seem to very clearly run against Kickstarter's rules.

I think that's a fair criticism: definitely one of the reasons why I didn't decide to back the project.

And I think the idea that this is may be really about paying tuition instead of finishing the game is something that's fair to report and let Kickstarter decide whether it violates their terms of use.

Overall, it looks like a bad Kickstarter campaign to fund, but it's not fraud and the level of vitriol about it is over the top. Bad Kickstarters happen all the time[1], but they don't get this crazy amount of hate.

[1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters

I think most people think they are donating to somebody who needs it or to a camp itself. Not to a single person. I presume that is how they got $22,000 in commitments for a $900 fee. That is the fraud. And the "it isn't fraud because it was written the kickstarter was pointless." That just makes it a particular type of fraud.

What made you arrive to that conclusion? The kickstarter text makes it clear it's going towards this girl's camp fees and a laptop.

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