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Comment by mindcrime | Hacker News Reader

I really want to avoid gun control debate, but having access to guns is a significant risk factor for completed suicide.

It's an interesting question whether or not this should even be part of the gun control debate. IF, if, you accept the idea of a "right to die" (I do, FWIW), then people who voluntarily choose to end their lives using a firearm should not be counted as "gun deaths" in anything like the same way as homicides, or even accidental deaths.

Now granted, that's a controversial topic in it's own right, but it's something to consider. If somebody choose to die, does it really matter how they do it?

Of course, it also raises the issue of whether or not people who (try to) commit suicide really want to die or not, or are just "looking for help" or whatever the phrase is. I don't really have a stand on that.

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Suicidal depression is an illness, no less so than cancer; when people get cancer, we try hard to keep it from being fatal. We don't chalk cancer fatalities up to the body's right to succumb to entropy.

Some subset of suicides are "right to die" cases, but given the prevalence of clinical depression, the notion that most suicides are the result of rational decisionmaking and not illness is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

But if I'm worried that I might become suicidally depressed in the future, and I don't want to have ready access to a gun, I can choose not to buy one. I don't think it's the government's job to protect me from myself.

I don't care about the gun control debate; HN is a terrible venue for it. Some of my close friends are gun enthusiasts, others gun-control activists. I don't think any less of people who disagree with me about guns and think of it as one of the better examples of a "reasonable people can disagree" discussion (which, ironically, tend to be the worst kinds of discussions for HN).

I do care about misconceptions about suicidal depression, since depression is a serious risk for the community of people that use HN.

But no one forces the cancer patient to accept cancer treatment - it is always a choice. The same can be said for clinical depression - but for some reason in this case you sound as if you'd like to force the person to undergo treatment because you think you know what is in their best interest. I find that highly contentious.

the notion that most suicides are the result of rational decisionmaking and not illness is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

FWIW, I am not making that specific claim. I'm just pointing out that there is another angle to consider, as far as whether or not the suicide issue should even be considered when talking gun-control.

I suspect cancer and depression share another important property: it's damn hard to treat if you don't diagnose it.

I have no data, but I would venture the guess that suicide is far more prevalent among those with undiagnosed depressions, than those with undiagnosed ones.

What I find interesting is that when suicide was illegal in the UK, the suicide rate was lower.

Should we make suicide illegal just to keep the rate down?

The argument for a persons "right to die" may hold up to some degree. However, I believe the spirit of that sort of protection applies to those who are terminally ill. The idea being able to preserve a persons dignity and shorten the time spent in excruciating pain.

Treatable mental illness: depression, anxiety, etc. do not fall into this category. They are not terminal.

Proximity to an instrument of death when a person is contemplating suicide (due to treatable mental illness) is a very real issue. If there is no barrier in place, the rate of change from thought to action is astonishing.

It's also important to note intoxication plays a role in this same sort of escalation.

In these cases you're looking for anything which increases access (proximity) or reduces inhibition (chemicals). Eliminating these gives professionals and loved ones time to help.

> Of course, it also raises the issue of whether or not people who (try to) commit suicide really want to die or not, or are just "looking for help" or whatever the phrase is. I don't really have a stand on that.

I certainly see the general distinction you're making, but I'd say putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger is removing any ambiguity from your intentions. I'd say the "cry for help" methods would be things like overdosing on pills, cutting wrists, etc.

I guess what I mean is, sometimes the person doing it may not really be sure (in theory, I don't know for sure) and the ones overdosing on pills or whatever may full well expect that it will kill them. And, as weird as it may sound, people do survive gunshot wounds to the head, especially from smaller calibre / weaker rounds, like, say, a .22LR. I believe it's not unheard of for a .22LR round to literally bounce off the skull and cause fairly little serious damage.

And, of course it also complicates things that we can't talk to the people who succeed, and find out anything about their actual intentions. :-(

I'm not sure if people who suffer from treatable depression, and commit suicide, should be included in the euthanasia bracket.

Yeah, I don't know either. Just throwing the idea out there for discussion. Depression is a weird thing...

I'm also not sure, but there is a lot of well poisoning about that.

Usually, if someone physically healthy decides that (s)he doesn't want to live any more, we automatically declare that person mentally ill (even if no chemical imbalance seems to be present). It's implicitly stated that ending one's life is a decision that can't be taken rationally (unless a terminal physical illness is present). I find that quite disturbing.

Depressed that you may or may not "have a stand" on someone else's thoughts.

I'm not sure what you mean. What I was getting at, is that there's a popular meme you often hear repeated, which I don't know if I accept or not, which claims something like "everybody who (tries to) commit suicide is really just crying for help".

I don't have a stand on that, because I think it's probably true more often than not, but I believe some people actually do simply make a rational, calculated, carefully weighed decision concluding that the pain they are experiencing outweighs whatever joy they experience, and decide to end the suffering. IOW, I'm one of the people who think that - for some people - suicide is a reasonable choice. And who am I to tell them it's not?

We all have our own crosses to bear, and empathy or no, none of us can ever truly understand someone else's pain, IMO.

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