Comment by eranation | Hacker News Reader

Comment by eranation | Hacker News Reader

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All I can say is this: if the saying "Always plan to throw away your MVP" is true, then I can't see any other storage solution other than MongoDB (or a similar schema-less document storage DB) for MVPs. The speed of development and flexibility are simply worth it. Yes, it is hard to refactor a live product and move it from MongoDB to MySQL / Postgre but was done before and you only do that if you get traction, so its a good problem to have.

I would start with MongoDB, get a grip on what on earth the product is doing, finalize the schema on the fly based on A/B tests, customer feedback and analytics, only once the schema is finalized move it to a SQL database if needed.

If you are not using a good ORM + DB migration system, then MongoDB will make perfect sense when you are quickly iterating through ideas and trying to find a product / market match. You really have no clue how your data schema is going to look like in the end, why confine it at the start? the vast majority of startups sadly won't get even near the phase where they really reach scale related performance issues, so choosing MongoDB for prototyping your business absolutely makes sense to me.

You make a VERY big "if" in your first sentence, one that (admittedly anecdotally) I've very rarely seen hold true in tech companies. Much more often, the MVP becomes the product, and all those shortcuts and poor design decisions come back to kill your productivity when it becomes necessary to refactor foundational tech/designs that have metastasized throughout the codebase.

I am curious if this is other folks' experience as well, or do you actually throw out the MVP and start all over at some point? If so, at what point do you make the break?

MVP is used to get funding; which extends your runway so you have time to make your product correctly.

In real life, you are totally true. The initial test that succeeds becomes/continues to be the real product. I agree with the parent poster that Mongo is awesome for testing, if not awesome for scale. I think the point here is that tech co-founders/leads need to make it clear that this is a debt that will need to be paid if things take off.

If NoSql's speed and flex gets you to MVP, and MVP gets you traction, then all the hell you may go through to rearchitect for SQL is probably worth it.

Premature scalability is as dumb as premature optimization and premature generality.

When I develop against MongoDB in python, ruby, or clojure, I consider it less a database and more a persistence layer for my dicts/hashes/hash-maps, with a handy-dandy query functionality built in.

Hell, in clojure I usually develop against a hash-map of hash-maps stored in-memory until the project gets far enough to re-implement the data layer (which I've hopefully abstracted well enough to not be a big deal).

Think of Mongo less like a schemaless postgres, and more like a persistent redis. Ease-of-use is its true advantage, and I think anyone who exceeds its capacity should be happy to have the problem.

I tend to treat Mongo similarly. At my job, we hate Mongo and I've stood up and cursed it more than once.

Plenty of personal projects end up running on Mongo, because it has a rich query layer for quick hacking. I also never expect these to exceed the amount of RAM on my machine either.

This is really the killer feature of MongoDB its API embeds very nicely in host languages and is very intuitive to use. I work for a competitor called RethinkDB and we've spent a lot of effort trying to make something that can compete in terms of ease of use. The leap we're really trying to make is for people to not have to throw their database out with their MVP.

Couldn't agree more.

I've worked for 15 years with relational databases and for the recent 6 months with mongodb on my startup. For me, the agility of not having to define my data in advance, and "work" so much to explain the DBMS how my schema should behave is no less than a game changer in my ability to build the MVP quickly. I just can't imagine having to invest all the labor in having to model everything I did with a normalized database and ORM.

Really? Mongo is for me not a database. And I worked like you 15 years with RDBMS and a year with mongo. Mongo has no security. Especially the Mongo Cluster Solution makes it so easy to steal and manipulate datas without notice. Everyone who has access to the server can enter the database. Implemented "security" could be turned off with a restart.

And nowadays it is so easy in a datamodel in a RDBMS to make changes. It is high flexible too.

But another worst thing in Mongo is the performance at complex queries. It is a nice bin for thinks nobody needs or to put documents in but that's it with Mongo.

I don't understand how this argument keeps coming up. If you use rails, schema changes and migrations are DEAD EASY and I am not even a professional developer. What time exactly are you saving ??

Schema changes are not dead easy when you have hundreds of millions of rows and/or hundreds of GBs of data.

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