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Comment by sliverstorm | Hacker News Reader

Are you proposing we endorse a shantytown? History has shown us those go downhill fast, and I don't see how temporary shelters won't turn into a shantytown (and amusingly enough become permanent, much like every piece of shanty-code I write)

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A shantytown full of rich (at least, in earning potential elsewhere) startup/burningman type people which grows around convenient fiber might be different than one full of labor surrounding a mine.

I don't really buy it. The hallmark of shantytowns is everything is "half-assed". I can't see tech workers breaking out the saws and sandpaper and building quality neighborhoods in their spare time, and nobody will invest real money and labor into something you intend to bulldoze in 3-5 years. You will also get a domino effect; people with money and the desire for a nice place to live will automatically avoid your shantytown, filling it with people that don't mind living in squalor, leading to a more squalid shantytown- thus looping back on itself.

So basically you're saying "that's hard and vaguely similar things have failed before."

That's not much of a contribution to the discussion.

I'm saying "that doesn't make sense and the closest analogues failed before, please try to convince me more". This isn't a courtroom, but until rdl puts forth a solid case, the burden of proof is not upon the detractors.

I can't see tech workers breaking out the saws and sandpaper and building quality neighborhoods in their spare time...

Why not? Building physical things for yourself can be just as satisfying as building virtual things for others.

Because as much as engineers tend to think they are experts in all fields, they aren't actually. So take a bunch of working professionals who just came home from an 8-hour day, and see how much quality skilled labor in fields they don't know anything about you can get.

I mean, I like building things, yes. I make small tables, I replace parts on my car. But I can't really hope to raise a decent house, even if I had 20 of me.

Ok, so you managed to put up a house? Wait, there's more! Did you build it to code for fire, sanitation, earthquakes...? Of course, some of the codes are overly pedantic and there is some baggage there, but frankly I don't expect IT professionals moonlighting as completely untrained architects will build houses that aren't going to crush hundreds of people in earthquakes or start fires.

I was thinking stuff in the 300-500 square foot range, which is far more feasible. Converted containers or other modular elements. Mobile homes/trailers at the low end. The idea would be to have private cheap/transit stuff and a few professional/serious buildings (like older converted farmhouses).

I can certainly build a shed, even from lumber, and pretty much anyone moderately competent could.

I can build a shed too. I wouldn't live in a shed, though.

You only need a couple of trained architects to oversee the whole deal.

So we just cross our fingers a couple good architects want to live in our shantytown, whose main proposed draw is proximity to fiber?

Sure, cross your fingers, and offer them a competitive reason to participate (i.e. pay them). Who says they have to live there if they don't want to?

There are plenty of architects with an interest in experimental communities. And not a lot of opportunities for them. You'd be able to find someone. Probably have your pick, actually.

You've never been to burningman, have you? People spend hundreds/thousands of hours individually or in small groups for stuff that they expend in a week. They go to the extent of learning to weld, do carpentry, etc., and actually pushed some tech innovation for things like EL wire.

People also spend ~$50 dollars a day for the tickets. The Burningman organizers arrange for medical care and infrastructure concerns before any of that cool shit even happens. And that's for living out of a god damned tent.

"I can't see tech workers breaking out the saws and sandpaper and building quality neighborhoods in their spare time"

I should have you over to my house sometime. I completely tore out the downstairs of my house. The guy that's helping me with the kitchen cabinets is an old cobol programmer. I think your experience with carpentry and people that enjoy carpentry might leave a little to be desired. (I don't mean any disrespect by this) and I'm not saying that just because you chose "saws and sandpaper" for what is needed to build a structure.

I am curious why do you think tech people would not be interested in building things using lumber? If you are looking for a book to read pickup "Shopclass as Soulcraft." I don't think its going to make you want to pick up a trade but I think it might give you a different perspective.

People keep thinking I'm saying technical folks don't like wood, or something. I just mean when everyone already has a day job, and no one has real training or worthwhile experience, you are probably going to have trouble getting good results in a reasonable amount of time.

IMO this falls into the ol' boat of engineers thinking they can do everything just as well as people who were professionally trained. "Drilling for oil? How hard can it be!"

P.S. Unless frames come precut or premade these days, how exactly do you plan to build a house without some form of saw?

It was the sandpaper part that sounded funny to me.

Speaking of framing, you know that aisle of 2x4x8s you walk past at home despot? They are not all 96 inches long. If you look close some are labeled "framing studs." They are precut to 92 5/8 precisely so that you don't need to cut down every stud when you are framing a wall.

I personally kind of hate stick-built stuff; my dream home is concrete and steel and glass, with textiles and strategic wood for sound and aesthetics.

You might not like New Zealand then - its 95% stick built (well, wood) and has a minimum of concrete. That was changing, but after seeing the Christchurch earthquake, this wobbly island isn't going to be allowing heavy stuff that isn't braced like a battleship anytime soon.

Now you might think that, the way things are going, by 2025 a person born without VC connections (i.e. an EIR position earmarked for him when he's in the womb, somewhat like a trust fund) will have to live in a shantytown in order to have a shot at surviving in VC-istan.

Well, I'm here to tell you that you're wrong. He won't have to inhabit a shantytown. He'll have a nice storage cell to live in.

Is there anything that is not somehow VC-istan's fault?

Please let me know if you think of something, so I can be sure to figure out how it is in fact VC-istan's fault after all.

There are lots, but none in michaelochurch's life apparently.

Please figure out a way to connect the rise of Islamist insurgencies with VC-istan somehow :)

I was actually half-joking. I don't actually believe that software engineers will have to work out of storage cells in 12 years. It was a Snow Crash allusion.

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