Comment by edw519 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by edw519 | Hacker News Reader

"usually employers look for someone that codes like a robot"

Wrong. Usually employers look for someone to get the frickin job done without rethinking the problem. Classic example right now: I have PhD in Strategic Planning telling me to make the algorithm calculate the Economic Order Quantity when creating the Purchase Order. The Buyer immediately gave me 4 reasons why that will never work in the real world: the vendor will have to interrupt set-ups for plan changes, the bank will never approve that line of credit, the rev level may change before the end of the run, and oh, by the way, that many won't fit on the truck.

"...trying to get a plain ol’ developer position..."

You have an attitude problem. There's nothing "plain ol'" about what we do every day. While you were busy in your ivory tower for 8 years, someone had to keep the world moving.

"companies want the 20 year-olds to code quick and turn out an app with a 6-month lifetime"

On what planet? You were obviously too busy in college to actually find out what really goes on in the real world.

"6-8 years in graduate school under constant stress torn your ego into to pieces"

Poor baby. Get a job. Feed, clothe, and shelter a family. Deliver something every day to someone who is depending on you. For those of us who have been doing this for years, earning a PhD sounds like a vacation.

As someone just finishing Ph.D. that also had industry jobs, I can say most of what you say seems wrong. There indeed are plain old developer positions, consisting of e.g. making some frontend talk to some backend - most real-world corporate programming is like that.

"Deliver something every day to someone who is depending on you" - this is exactly what you have to do in a Ph.D. program all the time - you have coauthors on papers that have to be shipped, and yours and their future depends on it.

In the corporate world, you also have to deliver, but at least what you're doing is well known to be possible. In academia you have a constant feeling that you might be against an impossible problem, and the results will never come together.

Plus in the corporate world, you can work 9am-7pm at most, rather than 11am-2pm as in grad school. And the pay is 4x higher. Now what sounds more like a vacation?

(Of course, here I was referring to a PhD in Computer Science. I don't know what's Strategic Planning, so I can't judge there.)

I agree a PhD is not a vacation (I left my PhD program) but I think you are missing edw519's point. As an employer, why would you want to hire someone who thinks of the job as a step down, as just a "plain old developer position". Instead find someone who might not have the PhD-theoretical-type skils but is excited about the job and really wants to help deliver a higher quality product.

Thanks, lacker. You said it better than I. Good thing I write code better than hn comments.

I agree with both of you. I would advise Ph.D. not to take entry-level coding jobs, and employers not to admit Ph.D.s to such jobs. It will be a misfit, and everyone will suffer.

I was just a bit upset at the dichotomy of "industry = responsibility, having to deliver" and "academia = lack of such responsibility". I think we know better now what each of us meant.

Agreed. I never meant to say that academia = lack of responsibility. 2 different worlds. I miss yours.

As someone who has been in the real world for 30 years (after 20 years of schooling), I know most of what I say is fairly accurate.

I really don't mean to pick on you (or anyone else), but inaccurate claims about that with which you are not familiar deserve response.

"There indeed are plain old developer positions..."

Of course there are. And for everyone of those, there is someone else changing the world.

"this is exactly what you have to do in a Ph.D. program all the time"

Fair enough.

"In the corporate world, you also have to deliver, but at least what you're doing is well known to be possible."

Not my experience. "Do x, y, and z by the first of next quarter or you're out of business." You frequently don't know if what you're trying to do is possible. But you have to do it anyway. This happens all the time.

"you can work 9am-7pm at most..."

If only.

I admit that my "vacation" remark may have ruffled some feathers, and I love what I do, but it would be my dream come true to quit work and go back to a college PhD program. I know I'm not alone in this.

AFAIC, work is to make a living, education is what we live for.

We are not disagreeing. Here you're referring to your position of leadership and responsibility that you have risen to after 30 years, but I was talking about code monkeys.

"Do x, y, and z by the first of next quarter or you're out of business." Sure, but new developer hires in large companies are absolutely not in a position to decide where the business is going, and won't be for quite some time. The article and my comment were about the entry-level developer positions.

"And for everyone of those, there is someone else changing the world." Absolutely, and I greatly admire such people. But you won't change the world in an entry-level developer job. I tried such jobs, they were very easy and I suffered a lot the lack of opportunity to change the world.

"While you were busy in your ivory tower for 8 years, someone had to keep the world moving...You were obviously too busy in college to actually find out what really goes on in the real world...Poor baby. Get a job. Feed, clothe, and shelter a family...earning a PhD sounds like a vacation."

"You have an attitude problem"

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