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Comment by PavlovsCat | Hacker News Reader

That's the one I have no problems with. Whenever I rant on the phone about politics, I hope someone of those I actually mean by that, instead of just a friend who did me no harm, is listening to it. The same goes for any other medium (as phone conversations don't seem to be included in this)

Well, let's say I would have no problems with it, if I wouldn't worry about the chilling effects it would have on others.

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The politicians themselves aren't listening - and by being a surveillance target, you've already been othered to the point that your viewpoint will simply be taken as a sign you're untrustworthy and a dangerous element.

It would be nice if the politicians were required to hear complaints, but that only works if you're rich enough to make a difference in the Game.

Oh, I don't think it would change anything, I guess people deep into it are briefed on more arguments than I could ever dream of. They're probably perfectly aware of and okay with what they're doing, too. I still find this is one of the rare cases where narcissism actually is helpful, because I am not intimidated in the least by the idea of being spied on. I'm like fuck yeah:

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2660

Being caught spying on others = super embarrassing, being spied on = hilarious. But then again, I never had anything used against me, I would sing a different tune real quick in that case. So I don't mean to belittle it in general. But if anyone can get a kick out of it while being against it and vocal about that, more power to them, right?

I have to agree!

Maybe not the politicians, but their staff:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2005/05/24/terror-watc...

What if the intent of these "leaks" was less (inform the public) and more (instil fear for the chilling effects?) It seems that every day we see stories about the govt or police getting away with this or that but the population never does anything about it. Pretty soon everyone is desensitized to it and a couple of weeks later everyone is joking about the whole thing by making memes about the NSA listening to this or that.

It would seem the effect is to inspire confidence that our national secutiry apparatus is doing everything it can to head off threats before they happen. It seems that 90% of the outrage is container on reddit and HN.

> It seems that 90% of the outrage is container on reddit and HN.

Then you seriously need to expand your horizons on information intake, because human rights orgs are pissed off, Ecuador and Hong Kong are pissed off. Germany, and the EU as a whole are considering a wide range of actions, and so on.

   Ecuador and Hong Kong are pissed off...

Ironic given that in both of these countries, warrantless wiretapping is legal and routine.

Citation needed.

'Citation needed' is essentially 'I can't be bothered to Google' however:

Ecuador:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/exclusive-documents-illumi...

China:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/world/asia/with-snowden-go...

"Security experts and democracy proponents say that mainland China’s domestic surveillance operations in Hong Kong are far more extensive than the American effort. But those operations have largely disappeared from public discussion as attention has focused on the many details released by Mr. Snowden."

Key US-EU trade pact under threat after more NSA spying allegations:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europ...

So it would appear there's some outrage elsewhere too.

There's outrage everywhere but I hear what you're saying and I kind of agree. This kind of opinion will get you ignored or looked down upon on Reddit and HN but I kind of dont care. What I see in those places is a lot of impotent rage and speculation that comes a lot like "how smart can I make myself sound here".

I personally am not okay with the alleged surveillance of practically everyone in the world who uses a phone or the web. That's just not okay. But is that really what's happening? What I'm seeing in the actual documents that have leaked is that the NSA has the ability to surveil anyone using most services but I'm not seeing anything that shows that they actually are just collecting these vast swaths of data and aimlessly looking for incriminating things. What I do see is that they use this ability to target certain individuals and that they're allowed to do this because of a rubber stamp process in secret courts. I also see that sometimes in the process of targeting on person or a group of people, other innocent parties get caught in that net. This is what I've seen in the evidence. Now the editorial that goes along with it, which is what everyone is loving to eat up right now paints a darker picture.

Is what we really know scary? It certainly can be but I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand I see law enforcement doing its job and doing it without breaking the law and, for the most part, ethically. I'm talking about capturing the data of known terrorists and such. Then there's the egotistical, kind of immature, smarter-than-everyone-else side of me who hates this and thinks its the devil. This power can be abused in so many ways its not even funny. But how narcissistic can I be to think that anything I do is being watched by the NSA. Even if I were an activist, would they really care? There are so many other ways to target free speech and stamp out political dissent that are already in use today that you don't even need the NSA's prism to do it.

What I guess I'm getting at is that I don't think either view is right. Those who think this is just fine and no big deal are naive and those who think this is a grand government conspiracy to create a police state are also naive. It's hard to take either group seriously. The truth is somewhere in the middle where PRISM can be a useful tool but at the same time needs to be just open enough to where citizens can have an intelligent discussion of where to draw certain lines and what kind of oversight is needed.

As for Snowden, he now comes off as a narcissist who got played by a reporter for a huge story. Is there an element of giving a shit to Greenwald's reporting? Of course. But to think Greenwald ran with this out of pure love of democracy or some other equally trite reason is hard to believe. And for Snowden to take so fucking many top secret documents then fly off to, so far, two countries who would absolutely love to get their hands on them for their own purposes only looks bad for him. Being a whistleblower would qualify him as heroic but taking all that classified info then flying to Hong Kong (regardless of how close their government is or isn't with China) and Russia would qualify him as a traitor.

I know this isn't the big bad government conspiracy story we all like to jump in on around here but I think its closer to reality than either of the other two ends of the spectrum that we normally hear the vast majority of the time.

You seem to be conflating PRISM with NSA's entire SIGINT operation, I see a lot of people doing that. PRISM is one out of 504 programs that collectively obtain vast amounts of information (approximately 350 billion telephone and internet records globally in the month of March 2013). That is 4 trillion records per year, after filtering the data.

PRISM is an inconsequential piece of the puzzle, and truthfully one of the most innocuous. Nobody is really disputing that it collects information on only a small number of people. However, other NSA programs very clearly do not - they collect everything on everyone, then look at the interesting parts.

As of right now, the NSA has a blank check to collect any data they want and can retroactively obtain warrants for accessing that data. You can argue about the merits of what they are doing, but I see very little basis in arguing that they aren't actually collecting vast amounts of communications.

Personally, I think there is absolutely no way to stuff this genie back in the bottle.

>* but the population never does anything about it*

And they won't -- until it begins gravely-affecting their normal life (eg. food, water, shelter, Kim Kardashian baby news). That's how oppressive regimes maintain control (I am not explicitly saying Obama is an oppressive regime).

And that's where HN readers come in:

We have more knowledge and therefor more responsibility.

It is up to each and everyone of us to educate our families and friends and to effectively migrate them towards complete encryption, on every level.

- OpenPGP for Email - RetroShare for Chat/Messages/File sharing/etc. - Hard drive encryption - etc...

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