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Comment by clarkmoody | Hacker News Reader

The family should have refused to answer questions without an attorney present, as this could easily fall under a 4th Amendment violation on the part of the government.

How to resist warrentless searches (roadside checkpoints): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg

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Really asserting your rights gets you even more screwed by the police. You usually catch a charge relating to resisting arrest, or even obstruction of justice.

What I've often wondered is if we could just troll them somehow. Something to the effect of, if at every traffic stop everyone said, "I'm not sure, but I think it's possible there's a kilo of heroin in my trunk."

Obviously more thought is necessary for the idea, and you'd need a big campaign, but for non-terrorism related issues (nth disclaimer, my view differs from much of HN on that subject) it's time for the government to stop searching citizens on a regular basis.

I literally can't believe we have roadside checkpoints, which we all know aren't simply for DUIs, and "stop-and-frisk" as fully condoned policy in American cities.

It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process, but it is /not/ true that asserting your rights often gets you more screwed. It can, but it is more likely that the cops will back off and let you go. A simple youtube search for videos of people insisting on their rights shows this. Perpetuating the "you'll be fucked if you try to demand that police act legally" meme is dangerous for all of us, as it makes it more likely people will simply acquiesce to illegal searches (which makes them legal) etc.

I don't judge anyone who because of fear, history, immigration status, responsibilities, etc doesn't want to go toe to toe with a cop, but it's simply not true that the cops will usually just arrest you. Usually they back down, and occasionally escalate the situation.

I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.

For the record, I always assert my rights, and I've seen both results. Since I was never breaking the law, it's always worked out in my favor.

I'm certainly not suggesting that people don't avail themselves of their legal rights, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that there can be potential consequences for which one should be prepared.

But I can tell you a significant amount of police officers will become very aggressive, and I've been threatened with arrest on numerous occasions.

Having the luxury of knowing several great attorneys personally and professionally is all that kept me from spending a night in a jail cell once when I refused a street search of my person.

Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Ask anyone in Northeast DC how it went last time they tried to assert their rights.

>It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process

I can also say that once charged, it's a lengthy, difficult, and expensive process to prove your innocence, even when it's blatantly obvious. The prosecutor wants a win on his record for his statistics, and will hold charges over your head or threaten to add additional charges to attempt to force a plea bargain. I've seen it happen all the time.

>I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.

That would be the point. If enough law-abiding citizens force the police to conduct pointless searches, we could tie up resources. It's not a fully formed suggestion, just a blue-sky brainstorming idea of sit-in type legal activities to protest unreasonable search and seizure.

Cop watch is another idea that I have suggested elsewhere (and been extensively involved in). Nearly everyone has little video cameras in their pockets these days. Surveillance of the police should become so ubiquitous as to be normal and expected - both so it protects the people doing the "watching" and because it will change the feeling of not being accountable to the public on the streets.

For the record, I'm one of those annoying activists and in many (hundreds?) of police encounters I have never been arrested while filming and arrested twice while asserting my rights to not be detained for no reason.

I think it's almost a moral duty, if you're someone who doesn't get targeted by the police anyway, and have little to lose (except comfort) from a night or two in jail, that you take a hardline stand against police overreach, but I would never begrudge anyone who doesn't chose to do so for whatever reason: personal comfort level, kids at home, immigration status, prior record, etc.

I love the idea of cop watch. The Justice Department's specific guidance that taping the police was one of the rare moments over the past few years that I've been very proud of the Obama administration.

I wish someone sold a discrete, always-on dashcam and personal cam that uploaded to a remote server, with an encryption setup so that only the user could unlock it. It would be useful for personal protection, both from criminals and the police. Little brother may be the best way to fight back against Big Brother.

> For the record, I always assert my rights

Do you do this when re-entering the US from abroad?

I do this every time (assert my right to remain silent when questioned) and it usually results in my arrest, thorough search, and detainment for between 1 and 12 hours.

One time they sent the bus without me and then kicked me out of the border point with no phone or transportation in northern Vermont in a snowstorm in February.

Being a US citizen, they have to let me in, but they sure don't like doing it, so they go to every effort to threaten, intimidate me, and ruin my day (despite my maintaining a 100% professional and polite attitude throughout).

> Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones.

Over 90% of the time I assert my right to remain silent at the US border, I get arrested and threatened and harassed for >3 hours.

Why then do you do it?

For kicks?

Because we all need to, and you have to count to one on the way to 350 million.

I suppose it's the same reason a lot of people vote: I see it as my civic duty as a US citizen.

If only criminals use the 5th, then using the 5th becomes reasonable suspicion. That sucks. All US citizens have an individual responsibility to prevent that.

it's interesting. I was under the impression that essentially you had no rights at the Border and the US was under no obligation to let you back into the country. If you can film this someday and edit it down into something watchable, I would be interested to see the stages of confusion, befuddlement, anger, acceptance, release, but I don't know if you can film border guards either.

You have no 4th amendment rights. You're still a US citizen on US soil though, and they have to let you in.

The following link is not mine.

http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-fed...

I actually don't do this at the border, mostly because I travel for work, so getting detained for 12 hours isn't an option.

I do commend you for doing that though. It takes true courage and conviction. You're doing a national service. Sincerely, thank you.

I travel for work, too, and have missed business meetings with clients as a result. We do not have the luxury of only standing up for our rights when it is convenient for us to be harassed by the police.

While I agree about the longterm effects of consents to searches or answering questions, but people just can't afford to risk standing on their rights. An arrest can cause bankrutcy or permanent injuries from brutal cellmates, and a warranted search can mean extensive destruction of property (just before this I read: http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4041727&cid=44449...)

Yeah, searches of homes or cars can really just be straight out ransacking. There should be a statute that the government has to pay for damages incurred during searches, especially if they're ruled improper.

A typical forum windbag full of "what you should have done" advice for an incident at which they were not present and have never experienced. If you were at home with your family and 6 armed men turned up at your house, you'd want them to go away as quickly as possible.

perhaps...but it's really hard to take that stand with half dozen armed men are on your porch...

This is what the cops count on. Same as in DUI checkpoints, telling you to just let them search your trunk when they pull you over for speeding and then they'll let you get on your way, etc. The initial response by cops to saying things like "Are you detaining me?" "Am I under arrest or am I free to go?" "Do you have a warrant?" is usually pretty hostile - things like "You don't want to know what happens if I have to wake up the judge for a warrant at this time of night" "Do you have something to hide?" "I'm just doing my job, why don't you just let me do it and we can both get on our way, etc" -- Depending on the personalities of the cops involved, it can rapidly switch back and forth from good cop to bad cop. But they really do work and generally will respect the rule of law if you stand up for it.

They are trained to make you give up your rights voluntarily, not to abuse them and possibly have a lawsuit etc on their heads.

(Note: this may not apply if you are not white)

> (Note: this may not apply if you are not white)

…chilling

Does any of this apply if you are not a US citizen?

As a non-US citizen, if I come to the US on holiday, what rights do I have, if any?

[edited to add]

Answering my own question, this PDF from the ACLU seems to have some answers:

http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english_4.pdf

"Non-citizens who are in the United States—no matter what their immigration status—generally have the same constitutional rights as citizens when law enforcement officers stop, question, arrest, or search them or their homes. "

However

"Non-citizens at the border who are trying to enter the U.S. do not have all the same rights. "

You also have the right not to disclose your immigration status to ICE without speaking with a lawyer first, you have the right to have your consulate notified if you get arrested, and generally cops aren't allowed to just randomly ask people for their immigration status.

Note: at the border none if this applies. It is pretty much a "rights free zone"

Constitution applies to everybody, except at US Customs, which is an official Constitution-free zone.

I wish there was a text version of this thing, in simple and concise sentences.

Reminds me of "here's one weird tip to prevent unlawful search and seizure"

You may find this to be helpful. (and entertaining at the same time)

http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_M...

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