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Comment by dnautics | Hacker News Reader

I disagree. Systems of management are important. There are going to be some people who work well under a strongly hierarchical system, some people who work well under a flat system, and people who could hack it under either. Thing is, there is no reason to believe that the people you attract under any given culture/structure is completely independent of ability to provide a product or service.

For example, GE is a very hierarchical megacorporation, BUT it has found it expedient to make its aircraft parts manufacturing flat, because parts don't need to be turned out so quickly and individual workers can have multiple specializations.

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The intriguing thing about the article for me is that it combines a pretty sophisticated description of an alternative management structure with a characterization of "traditional management" techniques which is just daft. There's nothing remotely novel or "flat" about a corporate culture where managers and their reports are happy to discuss their personal lives and socialize with each other; it's pretty standard in lots of very hierachical, old-fashioned corporations whose managers have an above-subnormal level of social skill.

And for that matter, asking employees to rank their "SCARF" priorities sounds like some new form of torture a pointy-haired middle-manager might devise to torment you with the unforeseen consequences of picking the "wrong" order ("in view of your desire for greater autonomy and ambivalence about 'certainty', you're now part time")

hah, totally agree about the SCARF thing. I thought, "oh that's a great idea", and then I immediately realized, "oh hell no". This may sound creepy, but I guess part of a good manager is figuring out the SCARF parameters of an employee and figuring out how to arrange them in projects/gently nudge them in the right direction based on what you (hopefully have correctly) identified as the motivators for the employee.

Yes, yes, and yes. I work with Holacracy and I will confirm that the techniques described from Stirman's experience before joining Medium (chatting with employees, SCARF, etc.) are not to be put in the same bag as Holacracy.

It doesn't even make that much sense to compare them -- these techniques are bolt-ons - more or less useful practices to make do with the challenges inherent to a conventional structure. On the contrary, Holacracy is a new meta-structure for how power is distributed, how decision-making is distributed, with different channels available to effect changes - a new "social operating system", really.

In my experience, having my manager use techniques like SCARF to "better reward me" is nowhere near as powerful and empowering as having no manager to solve my problems, because there is a system that allows me to address them myself.

-Olivier Compagne

> a new "social operating system", really.

As a species, humanity is about 50,000 years old. Millions, if you include our most obvious ancestral species.

The claim that neologism-of-choice is a "new" system is extremely unlikely to be true. What is more likely is that the new system is a reinvention of a system that has been seen hundreds of times under hundreds of names. Social structures tend to be evolutionarily convergent, depending on prevailing constraints. If a given structure is rare, that is because it relies or can only exist in a peculiar environment (eg Valve + massive profitability).

Truly. There is nothing new under the sun. Including totally "new" social systems that "work" because of short-term enthusiasm.

Well, technically, I'll grant you that it's impossible to rule out. IMO it's highly unlikely that someone came up with these rules: http://holacracy.org/constitution, but I'm not going to argue that, the novelty is not my main point.

I'm interested in whether it's working. From what I've seen, it is. Perfect? Of course not. The be all and end all of running a business? No, you still need to do work. But it's a much better framework to do so that anything else I've seen. Many people seem to share this opinion, too, and it seems to help them to their work better (and enjoy it more). That's pretty cool in my book, I don't need to convince the world that it's right for everybody. If you find the same benefits with another system, or a similar one from thousands years ago, who cares, run with it.

Would you agree with 'which system of management you pick isn't that important'? I think point is that management system isn't necessaraly unneeded, but that it's less important for progress than the acts of having empathy for someone, and they you.

sometimes "having empathy" can get in the way. Surgery, as a possible example.

Every team will always have different people. Some need more hierarchy, some need more autonomy. Some differ on SCARF. Some differ on Myers-Briggs personality type. Sometimes the differences are big. Usually they are small and not binary. The job of a manager is to create an environment, where all those different people can efficiently work together. This means every manager will to some extend create their own system in their sphere of influence.

Your GE example, fits my theory as well. ;)

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