Comment by mahmud | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mahmud | Hacker News Reader

The article is hardly about "bending a language to your will", and more about "why doesn't the sole vendor of my language implement features suggested by the greatest living language designer".

Alright, now that we have paid lip service to GLS, let's ask a question:

The author speaks of the lack of operator overloading in java, and my question is: why not use a language that allows you to add your own operators, better yet, one with no concept of officially sanctioned operators? Remember, operators are just functions with syntatic-sugar (i.e. they're usually allowed to be infix instead of prefix.) why not work with a rich, expressive language that treats your "extensions" as first-class citizens?

It seems like the gripes of mainstream programmers about their tools boil down to two things: 1) lack of vendor responsiveness in implementing much needed features (which varies from one programmer to another, whence the lack of vendor response ;-) and 2) demand for solutions to augment, or make-palatable, a brain-dead design.

Don't worry about making the language "succeed" or "win" against the competition. If you're struggling with your tools, don't hesitate to look for better options.

Your tools should be so efficient that you no longer think of them consciously, much less inspire a long gripe in prose.

The problem with operators is that they have a binding strength. If you want the expression 7 + x * 4 to evaluate correctly operator * must be stronger than operator +. If programmers can define their own operators they'll either have to supply binding strength as a numeric parameter (ugly) or relative to other operators. For instance, you could have a list of operators per class type, where the first operator in the list is the strongest, and the last operator the weakest. You can then insert your operator in the "right" place in the list to specify the strength. This is a reasonable solution, but you'll run into different problems when two libraries each define operators on the same types. Either way it's not going to be an elegant solution.

It also is a problem on the grammar level. The expression 5--x is ordinarily parsed as 5 - (-x). But if you were to introduce an operator -- the meaning of that statement would change to 5 -- x. So the introduction of user defined operators can change the meaning of an expression.

Overloading and user defined operators is a hairy, hairy topic, and the "anything goes" approach is not necessarily the right solution.

The problem with infix operators is that they have a binding strength. The solution is to use prefix notation. Problem solved!

ML dialects allow you to configure the "-fix" of your operator and its precedence. But then, we're not Sufi mystical clerics writing algebra to discover the secrets of God on expensive parchment; it's time to let space-saving algebraic infix operators behind people ;-)

Well, the main case in which people really care about operator precedence is arithmetic. I'm not saying it's the only case it matters, but it may be worth having conventional infix arithmetic as a wrapped sub-language, or otherwise making an exception to accommodate it.

You can argue all you want about how order-of-operations makes things unnecessarily complicated in a parsing / syntax context, but if doing infix arithmetic in your language doesn't just work (see: Lisps, or OCaml's float operators), many peoples' first impression will be that the language makes doing simple stuff hard.

> You can argue all you want about how order-of-operations makes things unnecessarily complicated

That's not what I'm arguing. It's okay for that complexity to exist, I just don't think that exposing it to the end programmer is by definition a good thing. If you have a fixed set of infix operators then you can have a well defined grammar. If you have an extensible set of infix operators, then you need to make major changes to your grammar to prevent ambiguity.

The way infix operators work is a decision the language designer has to make early on. Bolting on a way to create new infix operators in Java (not that you're suggesting that) would be a disaster. I agree with you that sacrificing the "just work" aspect in the name of strong typing (OCaml) or in the name of uniformity (Lisp) is a bad trade-off.

I agree with you -- I wasn't refuting your point, but rather noting that it's worth considering as a major usability issue for the language, rather than strictly a technical decision. (I meant to say, "One can argue ...", but hadn't had my tea yet. I can see why you read it that way.)

I had Hexstream's glib "The solution is to use prefix notation. Problem solved!" reply in mind, actually: in that case, the language trades a syntactic ambiguity for pissing off everyone who expects to do basic arithmetic without major problems, which will disproportionately be people new to the language.

Cavalierly dismissing this is hardly a solution. If I were new to Lisp, and trying to use it for something based on relatively simple arithmetic (say, totaling a categorized spending log), and a question about why "total + val" didn't work was answered with a digression about parsing, I would be pretty annoyed. If the person talking up Lisp were to then go into a spiel about how Lisp is great because you can extend the language to express things in their own terms when I couldn't even use arithmetic, I would probably assume they were full of it and write off Lisp entirely.

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