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Comment by clhodapp | Hacker News Reader

I'm almost sorry to be making this comment, but I feel compelled to. Your comment is an example of casual objectification and I really don't think it's appropriate public discourse. Worse, it perpetuates/fulfills the "boy's club" stereotype of tech startup culture.

I'm a bit conflicted because this comment is:

1) Off-topic

2) Technically a personal attack

3) Something of a call for self-censorship

However, I feel that it should be made. Feel free to express disagreement or even downmod me if I'm out of line.

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This should not be an issue. Men and women both should be able to voice their opinions on people they find appealing, especially in casual ways such as this.

Any comment regarding somebody is objectifying that person. Just don't be an asshole when going about it, and everything is fine.

My concerns are that:

1) The comment in question reinforces the idea that software teams are made up of men who are interested in being surrounded by beautiful women, which is what I'm referring to when I mention the "boy's club". As another commenter wonderfully puts it, "It assumes a heteronormative misogynistic view of the world."

2) It also makes a separation between 'the people' and 'the beautiful CR women' (though I might be reading too much into the exact wording).

Yeah, those are legitimate concerns. Perhaps the better way it could've been phrased was "beautiful people" rather than "beautiful women".

Are you saying he shouldn't say 'beautiful women'?

Latin America's not as PC as the US - women are openly ogled and married men often have girlfriends. Costa Rica also has a woman president, no military, and almost 100% renewable energy. Check mate.

He's absolutely saying you shouldn't say "beautiful women" in such context. It assumes a heteronormative misogynistic view of the world.

Why didn't it say "the hot CR men?"

"PC" isn't a flat overboard restriction of expression, it's for advancing a mutual respect of people. Your admission of "women are open ogled" isn't something to be proud of—it's backwards and needs to be corrected by society.

Perhaps he didn't say "the hot CR men" because his personal preference is for women? If he does not find men attractive why should he (or anyone of any persuasion) be required to declare them equally as attractive?

He wasn't declaring that he loved the women. He was declaring that you, as a group of (single, male) software engineers, will love the women. Why should HN be "required" to fall in line with his preferences?

In a room full of men under most circumstances there's going to be between some and most that love women. Addressing that group is not automatically the same as disparaging any other.

> Why should HN be "required" to fall in line with his preferences?

An excellent question. Why should HN be "required" to fall in line with your preferences? Especially when we can have our own that may or may not include everyone all the time.

I can see why you're confused. I am actually objecting to the idea that HN and software in general is just 'a room full of men'.

It's really the same argument, and response: not being explicitly included isn't really the same as being excluded and certainly not maliciously excluded.

It is the same, but when you are in the common majority class of oppressors (white, straight, male), it's difficult to see how your default views affect others negatively.

Is oppression still a thing? Seems like in this day and age [1] there is an awful lot of opportunity out there for all types of people to rise all the way up in society or government or anything else.

[1] My sister's a lesbian and a doctor. My ex's brother is from a tiny little town in Nicaragua (very poor country) now attending med school in Barcelona on a full scholarship. My country (Australia)'s prime minister is a woman. The USA has a black president. Costa Rica (my daughter's country) has women in positions of power and authority all the way up to the president and that's not at all uncommon.

Was a woman. And you might have heard a speech she made about sexism.

I didn't read the "you" as the group but just as the OP. In which case is it so much about sexism in IT or more about the lack of consideration that OP might be gay?

I think Costa Rican society (which, incidentally, has a female President) can decide for itself what needs to be corrected and what doesn't. Why are you so sure you know what is best for them?

I know what's best for them because it's just a low calorie version of the institutional abuse of women in India (https://medium.com/the-state-of-india-1/b50ee55ba5ff and http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1023053), and who would argue Indian society should just accept it because it's what they do?

I'm confused why you think these countries are in any way similar? Their cultures are vastly different, latinos adopted a lot of Spanish (etc) centuries ago and are 90+ percent Catholic, a church that has officially frowned on child-rape for over a decade.

I'm also confused why you think imposing your views on latinos, who typically love women, and as many as they can, will solve inequality in India.

The comment was about whether the comment should be made in hacker news, not costa rica.

> Your admission of "women are open ogled" isn't something to be proud of—it's backwards and needs to be corrected by society.

Unless men are also openly ogled.

Yes, correcting other societies' backward ways is what the west does best.

I'm almost sorry to be making this [meta] comment, but I feel compelled to. Your comment is an example of rampant policing to make sure everyone is completely flat, bland, and not expressing any personal views or preferences whatsoever.

According to you, possibly all communication will consist of weird hedging sentences like "It is an excellent country, you will fall in love with the men, women, transgendered and/or ungendered communities there.", or worse, will drown out all personal emotion altogether, resulting in ridiculous sugary generalisms like "it's great!" (great for what?).

Anyway, I feel I should point this out. Feel free to express disagreement or even downmod me if I'm out of line.

Unless the OP edited the comment, there is nothing off-topic, it is even interesting. And I don't see any personal attack or something to be censored.

That list refers to my own comment. Sorry if there was any confusion.

He's talking about his own comment. Kind of odd that he made such a good case against his comment but hit "reply" anyway. Anyway, this is all really off-topic, just wanted to clarify.

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