H1B restrictions would choke US of talent | Hacker News Reader

H1B restrictions would choke US of talent

hindustantimes.com

8 pointsnreece30 comments

U.S. should just grant talented people green cards without employer sponsorship. The problem for current immigration law is for a talented person (of course, what is the legal standard for "being talented" is another discussion) who wants to work in U.S., unless he/she has an employer, or she/he has more than 1 million dollars to invest. He/She can only get a green card by marriage.

And legally, a people who has no green card can not start any S-corp/LLC to hire her/himself. So a talented person without U.S. spouse and 1 million dollars and employer in U.S. has no way to get a green card, even he is fully capable of starting a start up with less than 1 million dollars by him/herself and grow it up to hire more Americans in 5 years.

And H-1B is not the solution to attract talented people by asking them to work as "indenture servants" in face of possible layoff and ask to leave the country in 10 days after layoff.

Who is going to take the burden of verifying who is talented and who is not?

The same people that scream against H-1B. The ACM!! Every year they throw a contest about programming, where most schools in the US, and many in the world participate. http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc I did, back in the day, and it is pure programming talent contest, there is no way you can cheat to it, or fake it. If you do really well in it, you ARE a really good programmer.

If you score, let's say, top 30% on that contest, you should be stapled a green card and come here, IF you want to.

For many years, there was University of Petersburg (Russia), would win the contest. A lot of these kids would get jobs from IBM, or MS. I'd say lets staple them a green card, and make them work for who the fuck they want, and maybe they create a startup, or join one, and hire even more middle/average americans also. Remember, a lot of startups have limited resources to deal with visa/green card sponsorship, so they can't afford to hire some of these bright guys. If they were allowed to work for whatever they wanted to, then they probably would benefit a lot of startup that needs really great talent (which might get wasted in a large company).

it is a win win situation.

But no, ACM and it's cousin, the EEC, are just taken over by bigots. If, they had their say, they would close the borders completely.

Well, accidentally, they have deviced a really good way to find out good programmers, from a bad one.

If you say this country has enough smart people, and it doesn't need more, i say you are full of shit. Economic opportunity is not a zero sum game. If you give more people the ability to 'be all they can be', without visa restriction bullshit, then there is more human potential to be unleashed, and utilized for the best.

If you want your country to look more like Detroit, or Alabama, then close your borders...

What is connection between Detroit and Green Card? I'd say,Detroit is exactly an outcome of excessive reliance on foreign intellectual force for building and sustaining economy. Foreign intellectual force has a nasty habit fleeing home or to some other country, (for example, one up north), in case of economic downturn in the country; and that accelerates downturn really badly.Especially bad, that accumulated knowledge is also carried out of the country together with H1B-guys. Corollary: no matter how arrogant Americans are about their country the standards of living are not highest there, and with worsening of the economy exodus will grow bigger and bigger..

http://tr.im/lfya

Somehow I doubt it. I don't think the situation is as black and white as the headline and outsourcing companies would like you to believe.

I don't like any of the big outsourcing corporations but this is hard fact. Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months.

Also it's not just about the cost of employees. The "seat" costs in US are usually more significant than salary. Blocking visas is suicidal.

And it was already broken. For example, I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker. Screw that!

Edit: minor style.

" I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker."

Amen Brother! The last time I worked in the Indian IT industry, I flat out refused to apply for an H1 visa. This was few years ago but the HR folks (who take care of the visa applications) still haven't recovered from the shock of encountering someone who did not want to go to the USA on an H1.

  Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months.

That is 100% fine. Move the job out! But don't move the job INTO the U.S, underpay the H1Bs, and bring the rest of America's salary down. If H1Bs want to compete with Americans, they should do it in their own home...not by coming to America.

FYI the goal of H1Bs was to help America with skilled labor not available here. The goal was NOT to replace Americans at work with Indians. (I have no problem with American jobs being replaced with Indians so long as they stay in India)

It's funny to read this article, considering the teaching children to argue article at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518

Logos: What's that compared to 9 per cent unemployment on a total labour force of 100 million?

Ethos: Obama "is too sensible to pass it. He's too mature"

Pathos: you'll generate a trade war with countries such as India, among others...

The arguments from Premji are heavy on the pathos and light on the logos...

Cui Bono?

In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the cheap.

And in my experience, the only people who say that are developers whose skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.

(1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American programmer?

To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back.

Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep them in their home country.

The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the salary of an industry is not a goal.

(2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?

1) In my view, the problem is that there are too many restrictions on H1Bs, not too few. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being deported (I guess they can now, but I've heard the time window to get a new employer to pick up your sponsorship is ridiculously short, and the amount of red tape your new employer has to cut through is considerable). This would cut the competitive disadvantage that an H1B has because they're effectively locked in to one employer, which would raise their salaries up to the market price.

2.) I'm all for it, because it recognizes that programmers are not interchangeable. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about employers treating them like interchangeable cogs in a wheel then turn around and argue that H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they are interchangeable cogs in a wheel. One or the other, man - either you are a beautiful unique snowflake, in which case you have nothing to worry about from H1B competition, or you aren't, and should worry about becoming one because you're screwed wage-wise anyway.

Your post has also touched on a couple pet peeves on mine, which are:

3) I find it disconcerting that after all the time I've spent with computers, one of the biggest factors in my career is still that I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There're many Indian or Chinese programmers who study for years - since they're little kids - so that they can do well on the college entrance exams, get into IIT or Chinghua, and then emigrate to the United States in a reasonably high-paying tech field. It seems vaguely un-American that being an American trumps smarts, hard-work, and prudent risk-taking.

4) What's with this deification of a particular price level ("should pay he market price of MY country")? I see this with home and stock market prices too - people assume that whatever the high is what prices should always be, and will go to great levels to keep them from going down. The market price is a signal - it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an industry than demand. If there is, perhaps you should adjust your behavior accordingly (eg. find a different subspecialty) instead of complaining about wages falling.

By your logic, all the folks that pickup trash in India should be allowed to move to America and work at a cheaper price than Americans. I am guessing you are also not in favor of the idea immigration, preferring instead a world where anyone can go and work anywhere.

  Notably, they should be able to switch 
  employers without being deported

Agree. That would fix a lot of the issues. But good luck trying to get that through the corporate-backed H1B lobby that thrives on the uncompetitive nature of H1B.

  H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, 
  which implies that they are interchangeable cogs

In most cases where I have heard that argument, it is someone arguing that their job can't be outsourced out of America. They seem to be right if you have to bring the H1Bs into America to replace them. If you can replace Tom in Cambridge's job with someone in Delhi, I have no problem with that.

  one of the biggest factors in my career 
  is still that I was born in Cambridge, 
  Massachusetts

The solution to that is not to import someone who is willing to work less expensively into your country to replace you.

And regardless, the idea behind H1B was never to create "fairness" between the haves and the have-nots. The goal of H1B is a selfish one: to help America. If it is not doing that, it's time to reconsider.

If you want an H1B-like visa to address the disparity between the Indian and the American developer, have a debate in Congress and create a new category(some would argue we already have many, ie. the green card lottery).

  The market price is a signal - it tells 
  you whether there is currently more supply 
  for an industry than demand.

Agree, but that assumes the market is open and fair. With H1Bs it is not as you yourself point out in your first point.

Thanks to the H1B blocks thousands of jobs switched from US to my country. Same with UK.

I can't stress this enough, THANK YOU. (BTW you guys are welcome to [] my country and have a much better quality of life for similar positions.)

Regards,

Argentina & friends.

Edit: minor style.

You are ok if all of Haiti moved into your country, took jobs at a salary lower than people in Argentina and caused tonnes of ARGENTINEAN people to become unemployed?

We are one of the countries with the largest immigration in the world if you consider immigrants per-capita. This is consistent with our history, we used to be a favorite destination for Europeans a hundred years ago and now for fellow Latin Americans. There are always some right wing idiots complaining, but most of the country welcomes immigrants. Also in the last couple of years we are again a favorite destination for Europeans, you see them everywhere and not just as tourists.

More info, but a bit outdated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_in_Argentina

  "Nearly a million permanent residency applications were filed from 2000 to 2008[]"

And we are just about 40 million. :)

thats how competing in global economies work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, thats what its worth.

companies bringing in people on h1b visas could always triple the salary for the positions they are filling, pretty sure they wouldnt have problems finding a good american to fill the spot then, but then they become uncompetitive.

I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway?

  thats how competing in global economies 
  work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, 
  thats what its worth.

I agree with that...until you do that in YOUR country. From your definition, you would be ok with moving all of India to US and working at lower costs leaving zero jobs for the people here. That is ridiculous.

I have defended outsourcing OUT of the US ruthlessly. ie. if an American IN America is doing something for 80,000 and his job can be done for $10,000 in India, it is 100% fine to send that job to India. But it is not fine to bring that guy INTO America BECAUSE he is cheaper. Neither is that the purpose of H1B.

  I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway?

Untrue. Read around.

Wipro? Kind of a biased party. My group at MegaCorp has hired an army of testers from Wipro. (they're generally competent within their job description, which is about all you can ask of any consulting company) Anyway, the point is that Wipro is in the business of providing cheap bodies to large companies. That's what they do. (one of the many things they do, actually) Of course they don't like visa restrictions.

Interesting point about my group's work with Wipro: even if we wanted to hire such a number of people from the US, we probably couldn't. It would be too expensive and they would be hard to find. BUT, hiring an army of testers was a terrible idea in the first place. It was a bad solution to the problem. 2 clever people with the license to act couldn't solved the same problem for a fraction of the cost, with better results.

So I wonder if this kind of labor acquisition is needed only by dysfunctional companies? Hard to generalize from a single sample, but interesting to consider.

A must-read on the subject - "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage" http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

The publication date on that paper is 1998, with an update in 2002: Don't you think the economic climate has changed since? (admittedly in support of your argument; but still, we might be due for another research.)

What is H1B for an employer: a young cheap worker putting long-hours for a company he can't leave for a few years in most cases.

It was true in 1998, it is true now.

This is a really great article. Take a look at these statistics

"However, outside of these subsegments, programmer salaries are not rising rapidly. Bureau of Labor Statistics data show that salaries of programmers overall - i.e. combining the ones who have currently-``hot'' skills and the ``ordinary'' programmers - rose about 7% in 1997. _If employers were desperate to hire, as they claim, they would certainly be willing to pay a premium of more than 7%._"

Great article. Thanks. Applicable to many other domains as much as to the one of the article.

One simple albeit temporary fix: Make H1Bs independent of sponsoring employer. Give those people freedom to float around like the rest of us and see how things turn out.

My guess is employers will have to start treating H1Bs as they treat others and that should change the economics on them to reduce H1B abuse.

I think the presence of H1B Engineers will create more jobs in America.

so would India outsource its work to say Sri Lanka??

There is one overlooked problem: people who leave there own countries - they do not contribute to the development of their motherlands. Even if they send money back to relativies, the do not engage in social life. There hundreds of social poblems in India, dalits fo example the need a lot of social momentum to solve them. Smart people leave nobody would fight. Second - c'mon, are you going to beleive Indian sources when the are talking about H1B...It's like beleiving Fox news.

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