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Comment by programminggeek | Hacker News Reader

Replace Software Development with any job and you are really on to something.

People are mean and jerks are everywhere. Perhaps somehow society has convinced us otherwise, but there are a lot of terrible people out there.

A lot of people do evil things, a lot of people hurt other people. This is not new and it's not a secret, people for whatever reason are more oblivious to it than they should be or perhaps people are so accepting of inappropriate behavior in our entertainment mediums that we are desensitized to it until it happens to us. I really don't know for sure.

What I do know is not everybody deserves a say in everything. Sometimes people are wrong, or are trolling, or just have no place in the conversation. The right thing to do is to remove those people from the conversation if they aren't being constructive.

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I think that the post over states it but I don't think it's entirely wrong that software developers are atypical in their behaviour, even if it's not exclusive to them.

There is something specific about the way that people in software development can be jerks - passive aggressive behaviour, sometimes a lack of self awareness, a certain type of arrogance or at the very least a lack of empathy.

And this in an area where in many ways there are many similarities which you'd hope fostered friendship and bonding - we're talking about smart people who often share interests.

Maybe it is just that software developers are typical but even if that is the case given levels of intelligence, education and so on I still find it disappointing that we can't be better than that.

>>There is something specific about the way that people in software development can be jerks - passive aggressive behaviour, sometimes a lack of self awareness, a certain type of arrogance or at the very least a lack of empathy.

Yes.

Generally speaking, I refer to this as "lack of social skills."

I don't mean that as derogatory, although I know it will come across that way. Most developers have grown up around computers, and in a lot of situations have chosen fiddling with computers to socializing with people. As a result, they don't gain important social skills until later in life, if at all. For example, the software architect for my company's software suite is an absolutely brilliant guy. But he's just incredibly awkward around people. When it comes to working in projects, or even simple things like answering questions from less technical people, he's terribly arrogant and condescending. I experience such attitudes from non-developers much, much less often.

I suspect that in part it's more common because demand for skills massively outstripping supply means that organisations have to put up with ahem personality quirks they wouldn't otherwise tolerate (or would at least avoid).

That said when I first started in IT I was surprised by how few people conformed to the cliched socially awkward stereotype. Yes it was more noticeable than in a typical a cross section of the general public, but I think that the damage someone being a complete jerk can have in a team context means that even given the difficulty in hiring it's selected out to some degree - you've either got to be really good, or at least be able to hide your true nature at interview.

I agree wholeheartedly and I have contemplated writing a blog post similar to the OP. One thing I've noticed a lot of is developers (or managers who are ex-developers) who feel like being very nice 80% of the time makes up for their horrible rudeness and lack of empathy and inability to communicate 20% of the time. I think a good analogy is if you're a violent criminal and a felon you're likely not committing felonies 98% of your waking hours in society, but the other 2% is a big enough problem that it's more important than your acceptable behavior at other times. If you melt down when the work isn't easy, or people have questions or there is the slightest bit of disagreement, it doesn't matter how nice you are when things are going well.

Having been in the work world for a while, I feel like this is new to an extent. I feel like harsh competition to the level of people being willing to sabotage their own projects and so-forth, is a phenomena of a gradually intensifying market-driven pressure that has been unleashed on society through a variety of forces (take-over focused hedge-funds and investor, market-efficiency ideologies, etc).

But reference than anecdotes, I'll give references:

David Gordon documents how downsizing produces expertise in sabotaging other rather than efficiency: http://www.amazon.com/FAT-AND-MEAN-Managerial-Downsizing/dp/...

The Gervais Principle perhaps summarizes the predatory new order. http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

But the point is this a somewhat new order. Of course, competition-so-ruthless-it-produces-bad-behavior has been around forever. But some circumstances allow that truly blossom and I think can argue we have those circumstances now.

That article on the Gervais principle blew my mind and I'd suggest that everyone reads it.

I tend to agree with the article... while people can be mean anywhere, seems like there's a certain confluence of characteristics and circumstances that allows "jerks" to have an outsize place in the tech industry.

But I suppose to look on the bright side, I'd rather have somebody be a jerk to my face, even if it is subtle and insidious, than have them pretend to be my buddy and then stab me in the back.

I'll take being surrounded by jerks over trying to navigate some of the intricately constructed, intensely political environments that are common in the business world.

It's weird because when I imagine a young kid who is going to grow up to be a software developer, I tend to imagine the kid who gets picked on, not the one who's picking on people. I wonder why the tables turn.

FTA

> It is sort of a “kick the dog” syndrome where software developers who were kicked earlier in life, or even earlier in their careers, tend to feel justified in kicking the programmers who they see beneath them.

This is what I tend to suspect, also.

From the item: "The truth is not everyone has your best interests at heart. The truth is that a large number of people would like nothing more than to see you fail...."

Without getting into why, one of the reasons the above is a bit astonishing is that it frequently leads to project failure, and in startups that usually means company failure. You can't depend on simple notions of self-interest even in situations where failure will mean all involved will lose their jobs.

I might be wrong but I think the average jerkyness has been in decline over the last 10 years. Now that CS is not entirely comprised of the geekiest of the geekiest, there are a few well balanced people present, means that employers have more options, and they increasingly want nice people.

10-15 years ago the internet was just for geeks, but now everyone uses the internet, and and now business people want to learn how to code instead of locking us up in basements. So I am encouraged that the aggressive know-it-all might be slowly going extinct.

Very few people consider themselves jerks, or go out of their way to be that way. You could argue that I'm wrong in Finance, but I think I'm right in Software. A lot of the solution is getting inside of other people's heads, especially those who may not have great social skills. Being a jerk isn't the same as less developed interpersonal skills.

I don't think your characterization of society is necessarily all that universal.

I'm from the southern US, where people are known for hospitality and politeness, and I often see things said on places like the LKML that make me go, "If you said that to me in person in that way, I'd punch you in the face." And, to be clear, to me, punching the person in the face is not nearly as rude or unacceptable as whatever they said.

I'm trying to get used to the fact that different people have different social norms. I still think people like Linus have _inferior_ social norms, though. (Though he may be an exception, since his style seems to work so damn well.)

This. Some people are mean.

Doesn't mean I have to put up with it, though.

In the same vein as a post linked here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6346933 ) I refuse to play audience to someone insisting on being mean. Maybe that's just the way that person is, I can't change that, but I can change who I choose to interact with.

If negative and mean people are happy being just so, they can be that way by themselves.

Great point. I agree.

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