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Comment by ufmace | Hacker News Reader

Yes. If you're discriminating on the basis of gender, how is that not sexist?

Using a definition that simple, most people in the world are deeply sexist.

Yes, and...?

When someone self-identifies as 'not a sexist' they also implicitly identify as a liar. To think we can ever get past discrimination -- sex, race, or whatever -- is extremely naive. It is as fundamental to us as making the distinction between 'me' and 'not me'.

The issue starts to become semantic. If by "discrimination" we just mean "recognizing differences and making decisions based on those differences," then it obviously shouldn't carry a stigma. But usually "discrimination" is being used to refer to unfair or undesirable decisions based on differences, and in this case we need to define what is and isn't fair or desirable.

If you take action based on a recognition of difference, a value judgement is implied. For example choosing action A over B implies a preference for action A, even if you don't consciously think of it that way. So it is hard to see how any human endeavour can ever be free of discrimination in the moral sense you're talking about. Every decision we make discriminates against someone or something in an 'unfair' manner, basically.

But why are all preferences "unfair"? What about preferences in partners, i.e. heterosexuality or homosexuality?

You're confusing -ist and -ism.

Men are better drivers = Sexist

Men are better drivers, so let's not hire women = Sexism

So then:

Women are more attractive to me = sexist

Women are more attractive to me, therefore I choose to only date women = sexism

Yup. And?

If men were being prevented or dissuaded from entering the tech industry then sure, that would be sexist.

Efforts to counter sexism against women are not sexist against men.

Using violence to counter violence is still violence. Using sexism to counter sexism is still sexism. Simply put, An eye for an eye will always leave two blind people no matter how justified one feels it is.

I do not consider it discriminatory to make an extra effort to recruit an under-represented group. Hence, I don't see this as "sexism to fight sexism."

I do.

Which is fair enough. I'm not going to get into that. I just wanted to point out the fundamental assumption in the notion of "fighting sexism with sexism."

That depends on what you mean by countering sexism. Telling your co-workers that they should treat the women they work with with the same respect they show to their male co-workers isn't sexist. Saying that you need to recruit more women is.

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