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Comment by jcutrell | Hacker News Reader

Dear HN.

Please stop making a big deal about how you don't like hipster beards.

It really makes HN look like pretentious douchebags instead of intelligent thinkers.

It makes HN people look like the have no understanding of marketing.

If you're going to criticize the marketing, do it from a metrics perspective, rather than being exactly what you're claiming to hate by telling people to stop being hipsters - arrogant.

Let people be who they are. Measure them by their output and their product, and the effectiveness of their decisions. Not on whether or not they conform to your taste/style.

I get it - if you have design critiques, it makes sense to share those. If you have marketing critiques, it makes sense to share those (like: "If you market this to hipsters, you will not get the hipster-hating crowd to buy"). If you have a personal soap box of despise for another person's tastes, please do not bring it here.

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> Let people be who they are. Measure them by their output and their product, and the effectiveness of their decisions. Not on whether or not they conform to your taste/style.

I would guess that the true point being made is that these people are not "being who they are," because someone else has caused them to "conform to [their] taste/style."

Your reaction is actually pointing out exactly the same thinking on their part as you're using to criticize it: hackers don't like it when someone has forced their idea of aesthetics on them--because hackers are, fundamentally, aesthetes--so we get vicariously offended when they see a trend of some group "forcing" their idea of aesthetics on some other group.

This applies even if that "force" is just the majority declaring some particular style to be "objectively fashionable." Hackers don't like the idea that things can be "in vogue", because it coerces their ability to self-style down set paths they might not want to have gone down. Even if they would have liked a particular style, having it be popular means it's no longer their creative idea to choose it--so it doesn't demonstrate their creativity, and that's all they cared about doing in the first place.

That makes sense.

However, there's one problem.

> these people are not "being who they are," because someone else has caused them to "conform to [their] taste/style."

This is assumption based on cultural hints. There have been quite a few times on HN where hackers have proven to indeed not be aesthetes, because hacking marketing requires aesthetic. This goes down to whether or not you appreciate aesthetics of your own appearance, as well.

I don't see anyone making the claim that this is "objectively fashionable". What I see is a bunch of people who rage against a marketing decision because it bastardizes their seemingly misguided need for aesthetic "purity" (whatever that means).

The criticism I'm offering isn't to stop liking your aesthetic preferences. If you don't like beards, don't grow one.

But someone posts a link on HN, and people bitch and moan because the primary subject of marketing is sporting a beard. It really misses the point of HN discussion. Again, I understand if the conversation is centered around the marketing (or other) implications of the decisions made by those who created the product and the site. But the conversation doesn't revolve around that at all. Instead, it's a bunch of "get off my lawn" and raging against trends without any particularly discernible purpose.

> But someone posts a link on HN, and people bitch and moan because the primary subject of marketing is sporting a beard.

I see two posts making fun of beards. Two.

Why are you even making this discussion? Meta discussion is frowned upon on HN. If you feel someone's discussion is off-topic, down-vote them and move on.

The irony is your meta discussion is now the top-voted post, instead of discussion on the actual product.

Totally agree with the idea that meta discussion should be limited. And, to be fair, it's not my fault my comment is the top voted post. I think the discussion about the fake/real login screen should be upped more than this one, certainly. But, I will say that I don't agree that this thread is invaluable or should be frowned upon for this discussion.

I think the product is quite nicely done. I bought it. And I believe the discussion revolves around not only the product, but the presentation and the reception of that presentation. So the "meta" value here isn't limited to the beard conversation. It's a larger discussion about the HN community, which isn't quite "frowned upon." It's important that we all contribute to moderation and encourage better thought.

I posted early in response to a initial negative discussion (which indeed is a pervasive issue on HN) about the pretension of the video, the aesthetics, etc. It's not just a response about beards - it's a response regarding the product and a more valuable way of understanding marketing, which I think will contribute to the discussion of the OP in the future.

And thus, I think it is quite relevant to this particular thread. But I will rest my case here.

> so we get vicariously offended when they see a trend of some group "forcing" their idea of aesthetics on some other group.

I like ties, and I enjoy wearing them. Are you vicariously offended that I might jeopardize my chance to get a developer job at Google or an SV startup if I wore a tie to the interview?

You seem to be upset.

http://www.gifti.me/i/ABT8Ex.gif

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