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Comment by nlh | Hacker News Reader

The culture of "napping = weakness / laziness" is still so prevalent in the US workforce. It's frustrating - because it's not logical, it's just pretty deeply ingrained.

I set up a (rather nice) nap room at my company's office and I'm the only person who EVER uses it. It turned into a storage room. I sent articles about the virtues of napping - the studies - the benefits - the facts - to all of my employees, and nobody seems to care. I _still_ get an eye-roll when I head off to the nap room in the middle of the day for a 20-minute power nap.

Meanwhile, the employees in the office just head to the espresso machine and down shot after shot to keep themselves lit up. It's so odd - I can explain 100 times over how I get all the benefits of caffeine (and MORE) by taking a 20-minute nap, and they just don't seem to care. Deeply ingrained, hard-to-change views.

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I suspect there might be something else at work here. Ask yourself this question: if you take a 20 minute nap at work, will that count as part of your working hours or not?

Even at the places where employees are not expected to rigidly conform to fixed working hours, there's an expectation to put in a certain minimum of hours. I'm not talking about producing a certain output: even in the most "goal-oriented" places I've worked at, there was still an unstated, tacit expectation that you were supposed to put in a certain minimum of effort, regardless of your results.

What I'm getting at is that if you have employees who nap and those who don't, there will almost certainly exist an expectation that those who nap should put in extra time equal to the length of their nap. Therefore, those who do nap will lose some of their free time.

If you're single, that could be an acceptable bargain: instead of sleeping for (say) 8 hours at night, you would have a 20 minute nap at the office, stay 20 minutes longer and then sleep for 6 hours at night. The net gain would be 80 minutes, which isn't bad at all.

On the other hand, if you're a family person, then that's 20 minutes less with (say) your kid after school.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're getting sufficient amounts of quality sleep at night, there is no reason why you should need 20-minute "power naps" in the middle of the day. (There may be exceptions, such as extremely demanding manual labor, but I think we're talking about white collar jobs in this context.)

"but if you're getting sufficient amounts of quality sleep at night"

Ideally yes. But there are times that even with the best intentions that can't be done. Anxiety, sickness, some important schedule issue. Maybe a big lunch that you shouldn't have eaten.

Naps work very well for rejuvenation.

Very few people are getting sufficient amounts of quality sleep at night, especially people with sedentary jobs.

Not for me. I can get 10 hours of sleep at night but I'll still hit an afternoon lull post-lunch. I'm sure if I really worked at it I could figure out why (too big a lunch? blood sugar spike?) but regardless, I'm good to go for 6+ more hours w/ a 20-minute nap. Meanwhile everyone else sits and forces their eyelids open, stares at YouTube videos, and downs espresso shots...

This lull disappeared for me after I stopped eating wheat.

Not saying you'd get the same effect from quitting wheat. But there's decent odds it's something you eat.

Do you have Celiac disease, or did you just decide on your own that wheat is unclean?

There are a few things other than Celiac disease that cause problems with wheat; I've never been able to get a solid diagnosis other than ruling out Celiacs but I know if I have too much wheat, especially in the form of light fluffy baked goods, I get very tired and cranky as well as having digestive issues.

It could be an additive used in commercial baking because I seem to be fine with no-wheat gluten and some forms of wheat,but pragmatically avoiding wheat helps me.

Could it merely be sugar crash from metabolism and starch breakdown?

A lack allergies or what not does not imply that it's healthy to stuff your face with it all day.

EDIT: nevermind, acconrad described the same thing 3 hours ago.

This entire thread is like a WebMD page. Somehow a food coma resulted in a Celiac disease diagnosis. Not that it's impossible, but it's certainly implausible.

Sounds like your lunches include a bunch of carbs, too much sugar, and/or maybe a drink or two. If it happens frequently, habits form.

Get real, guys.

But there isn't a way a doctor can sell drugs they get kickbacks for that...

Plus what would the carb, sugar producing companies say!

I didn't say I have Celiac disease. I said, since I quit wheat, I never get food comas. I used to get them routinely.

I don't know WHY I don't get them. Celiac is not the only issue wheat can cause.

I feel fairly confident in these results. I tested wheat in isolation, repeatedly. I've tested other variables: carbs, sugar, dairy. None of them ever gave me a food coma, in the absence of wheat.

It seems completely reasonable for me to avoid wheat, given the results of my experiments. Why are you so certain I must wrong?

Don't tell me you don't know that gluten, along with any form of sugar or anything else outside the paleo diet,, is not hacker-halal. You should be eating strict paleo or keto lest you die early, bloated and tumescent like that kid from Akira after he started mutating.

It was eating wheat for me as well. Once I started eating according to the ketogenic diet, I no longer needed naps during the day.

I'm another one of these: stopped eating wheat, immediately needed less sleep.

Does anyone know of any research on this phenomenon? There are obviously lots of anecdotes, but I can't find any studies.

Research on this very subject was cited on a Norwegian show called Pulse, but it's too long since I saw it that I'd be able to find it again. There apparently is a correlation between wheat and sleepiness, for some.

http://webhealthcritic.blogspot.com/2008/12/tired-after-eati...

tl;dr: the insulin spike from high glycemic index foods causes sleepiness, and low insulin sensitivity which can be caused by sleep debt and lack of exercise exacerbates it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postprandial_somnolence

> When foods with a high glycemic index are consumed, glucose is absorbed rapidly from the gastrointestinal tract into the bloodstream, and in individuals with normal carbohydrate metabolism, insulin levels rise concordantly to drive glucose into the body's tissues and maintain blood glucose levels in the normal range. Insulin stimulates the uptake of valine, leucine, and isoleucine into skeletal muscle, but not uptake of tryptophan. ... Uptake of tryptophan by the brain thus increases. In the brain, tryptophan is converted to serotonin, which is then converted to melatonin. Increased brain serotonin and melatonin levels result in sleepiness.

I knew someone who traced it down to this: http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-Gluten-Intolerance

He's fine as long as he eats gluten free wheat.: http://udisglutenfree.com/products/whole-grain-bread/

He ultimately blames GMOs: http://maninisglutenfree.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/the-histor...

6+ hours of productivity based on a 20 minute nap is a good ROI in my book.

Totally agreed :)

Yeah this is due to high GI, fast-acting carbs. I've experimented with this heavily with my lunches - it's always anything that is high GI (potato chips, cookies, any sort of sugary food) will cause that "crash" after lunch. That's why I save carbs for post-workout after my evening workout.

That's biorhythm, it has nothing to do with food intake. You will have a tendency to fall asleep around 2 pm, more or less, everyday, based on your internal clock.

I hacked this with Vitamin D supplements.

How much do you take, and does it really work ? Any secondary effect?

I try to take 10-15,000 IU (of D3 in gel cap) two to three times a week. Yes, it really works in that my blood testing showed the difference. I have seen no side effects, but then I was really, really deficient.

One side benefit: No more symptoms associated with Seasonal Affective Disorder.

YMMV.

I turn into a zombie whenever I eat carbs during lunch.

Try it and see - the next time you go out to lunch, don't eat pasta, bread, potatoes, corn, tortillas, dessert, coke.

Have a steak and green veggies. I can eat an enormous 24oz prime rib plate and not suffer the zombie state that I would if I ate a hamburger and french fries.

Don't discount a burger without the bun, and a mostly greens salad... I'm not strictly paleo, but if I avoid going over 100g or so of carbs a day, I tend to do a lot better.

Might want to have a sleep study done for sleep apnea. Quality of sleep != quantity of sleep.

Tell me about it. Just found out I have sleep apnea. It explains a lot!

(Also means I urgently need to lose some weight.)

Oh shit. So do I. Only a slight problem as I can't use a CPAP or VPAP because I tear the mask right off while asleep. I have some spare weight + Marfan's ENT issue that I found in a research paper. Also don't bother with any surgery, it's like RSI surgery... almost no average net benefit.

Yeah I just started logging everything before consuming... Age too means I've to permanently cut the daily calorie budget and ditch 9 kg (20 lbs) ~ 70M cal.

What about a dental splint? It seems a lot less fuss than a machine pumping you full of air all night.

The "70 M cal" scared me until I realised it was a small c. Still that's ... what ... 2 months on half-rations? :-[

Biphasic sleep is built into our sleep rhythms. There is a longer, deeper sleep period at night, and a shorter, lighter sleep period at the opposite time of the day (2-3 pm). This is more or less prevalent for different people, and you don't NEED to nap, but it certainly is not unusual.

For me that is normally true. However, I find that naps are also beneficial when I am doing something that is extremely demanding mentally. Of course, I would probably get the same benefit from just slacking of and browsing HN for a while.

Well some of us can't nap. I just lay there with my eyes closed for 20, 30 or even 40 minutes never coming remotely near unconsciousness.

This is okay too. Just relax and don't think about anything in particular for a while.

I end up thinking about how I'm not supposed to be thinking about anything.

I have this problem and I count - straight '1,2,3' doesn't take enough focus so I do fizzbuzz or powers of two. It's quite calming.

Yeah, and it's not very relaxing.

Likewise, I just go to sleep early and wake up naturally at 7.

It's worse for me. I fall asleep, then wake up groggy, often times with a headache.

Every once in awhile I achieve the perfect nap - and that's usually in a noisy place, very well lit - and after it, I barely feel like I was really "asleep" - not the same way that I feel after I sleep in a dark room under a blanket.

Have you considered if you're waking up in the middle of a cycle? Maybe you could experiment with the length of the nap and/or cycle detecting apps or gear.

This is important. I've found that 22.5 x 2^k min for any reasonable k has me waking up feeling refreshed.

Wait, what? These numbers seem off..

k = 1 => 45 minutes

k = 2 => 1.5 hours

k = 3 => 3 hours

k = 4 => 6 hours

k = 5 => 12 hours

That's exactly it (except that k=5 is not reasonable). The REM periods get longer and longer as you sleep; that is, the "cycles" do not have the same period.

Edit: also, k=0 is valid, and what most people have been advocating here (as 20 minutes).

Probably. But I find it difficult to will myself to go to sleep, so I can't use a timer; I guess I could try using something on my phone

Back in the 90s I worked in a fast-food pizza joint. I washed dishes and also took delivery orders on the phone. Normally we'd stand up while taking the phone orders, but one time I sat down on a chair there and the manager berated me for it. As if it was somehow lazy to be sitting, even though it had absolutely no effect on how well I did that work.

I think its worth noting that this isn't just prevalent in the workforce, but before many individuals get to the workforce, the cram and jam lifestyle of college student start carving this rut long before they are employed. I have to assume after anywhere between 4-8 years (sometimes more) of late night, caffeinated (sometimes worse substances) cram sessions this type of mentality and habitually terrible sleeping would be difficult to get out of.

This rut actually begins much earlier in some areas of the United States. Many high school students face early school start times and late nights of homework and studying. Add in sports, music lessons, extra curricular activities, or any combination thereof, and you get a recipe for sleep deprivation. Do that for 4 years of high school, and then 4-8 years of undergraduate/post-graduate/doctoral schooling, and you end up with some seriously sleepy people who have a hard time maintaining a healthy sleep schedule.

There's a "quiet room" in my office and I think i'm the only person that uses it. It's really nice to take a laptop, headphones and soda in there and just get work done without any distraction. And it has a window, with real light! There's also a "gaming room" which is now the storage room, but it still has a sofa and xbox that maybe somebody uses.

The culture of "napping = weakness / laziness" is still so prevalent in the US workforce.

Perhaps I've just been extremely lucky not to have seen this, but I don't think it's a justified generalization. I've only worked at length in two states, MN and FL, but I have never seen anything overt to suggest this is some sort of vastly applied cultural judgment.

For my part, I see napping as something that requires a big investment (learning how to nap) with an uncertain payoff, while coffee is something that works and seems to be beneficial for health. I certainly am not tired enough to fall asleep at 2-3pm given my current ability to fall asleep quickly.

Also, there are other strategies to deal with the 2-3pm slump, e.g. doing less intensive work.

Could you link some? I want to read more about sleep in general. Why 20 minutes? Why not 30, or 40? I keep seeing the magical 20 everywhere.

Has something to do with sleep cycles.

But don't worry about what is written. Just give it a try and see how much you naturally sleep for and when you wake up and go from there. This can be as simple as just laying your head down on a desk with an eye patch and ear plugs. Airline tarmack type ear muffs also work well for this and completely block out most noise.

Everyone is different. I don't care much for what has been written about this I just experiment and have found what works for me.

I have been doing this from way before there were even things written or it was something that was even considered a strategy. To me it just made sense. I don't really care what others do or whether they think it's good or bad.

I recall reading that anything over an hour disrupts your sleep pattern. 20 minutes might be a magical number for best effects. It also might be the length of a lunch someone gives up to nap after eating (or could be the full lunch).

This is the one that comes to mind off the top of my head (and Google), but I know I've seen about 6 articles over the past few years:

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Graphic/2008/06/...

It's more about not going into deep sleep, which would start around half an hour for most people.

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