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Comment by jgg | Hacker News Reader

I scratched my head after reading your comment, and waited to see if anyone else would say something.

Colin's problem was that his (hand-written, from the looks of it) crypto primitives allowed him to use AES-CTR with a non-incrementing counter. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to say that in relation to a comment about "rolling your own protocol." I see that as a low-level problem.

Further, you've pulled a misdirection talking about TextSecure (which looks great, by the way). They don't roll their own crypto algorithms, but they have definitely tweaked and modified the OTR protocol for their own purposes in order to make it more secure. I'm left wondering why TextSecure is held up in contrast to someone who uses their "own" secure messaging protocol.

Whether or not this Telegram app is trustworthy (the lack of full source is suspicious), I have no idea. I would personally pick TextSecure over it.

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The extension you're thinking about is Trevor Perrin's Axolotl ratchet, which is (a) the product of an actual cryptographer, (b) used in more than one system (it's also incorporated into Adam Langley's Pond), (c) has been reviewed by experts, and (d) is entirely specified, with a public domain spec.

It is not in fact reasonable to compare Telegram's ad-hoc protocol to the "extensions" TextSecure has.

I knew someone was going to say that...

The only point I wanted to make is that someone using a protocol (variant or original) that someone hasn't seen before is not inherently damning in and of itself. Mine was a general point, and yours is a practical one, which I mostly agree with.

The parent comment seems to imply that there is a pre-written solution for all cryptographic problems that can be dropped into place, and I also felt they were conflating high-level protocol problems with low-level cryptographic primitive problems (i.e., "rolling your own crypto" being used in a general sense). I think it is reasonable to compare two "non-standard" systems in that context, especially given how modifying an already-trusted protocol can go haywire if something is done wrong.

Whether or not an extension or protocol is reviewed, has a public spec, comes from a cryptographer, started from a more trustworthy protocol or has other practical elements that make it appear trustworthy on the surface, is another matter entirely. It 100% matters in practice, but not for a more general point.

I understand that Telegram is doing everything from the ground up and that TextSecure started with OTR, and that the ratcheting extension wasn't pulled out of thin air. I am not claiming in practice that Telegram and TextSecure are comparable (I did not mean to take anything away from TextSecure or the ratcheting scheme), and I personally would not touch Telegram in light of further snooping about and comments posted in this HN thread.

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