Hacker News Reader

Comment by henrikschroder | Hacker News Reader

Oh wow, those comments were interesting to read. Why the hostility towards North-korean spies? That spy program must have an exceptionally low success rate given that once you're outside North Korea, you will find out what the state of your country actually is compared to the rest of the world, and then what motication would you have to do your job?

The only thing I can think of that would keep them in check is that their family is being held hostage, but that would also make all of them extremely motivated to become double agents?

View on HN

1. True believers of the Juche idea are more likely to get postings abroad, and brainwashing from childhood is remarkably effective, 2. The lack of regimented lifestyle and strictly formalized social interactions can make the outside world as frightening to some North Koreans as living in North Korea would be to us, [1] 3. You must return with enormous amounts of hard currency to pay bribes to everyone involved in sending you abroad, so you're kind of constantly hustling, and probably too focused on those daily practical necessities to think about radically changing your life, [1] 4. Some spies do defect, the real defection rate probably isn't publicized by anyone on either side. [2]

[1] These themes are hit upon in some of the "inside NK" lit, I especially liked "A Year in Pyongyang." A bit dated, but NK nonfiction holds up well with age, and it's all free online: http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html

[2] Former NK spy: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-sp...

Read here about a sushi chef from Japan that worked for the Kims:http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-i...

Thanks for the read. The story felt surreal.

Why not do research on it instead of just putting forward your uninformed opinion?

As it turns out the North Korean spy program is actually surprisingly successful. It has been responsible for everything from terrorist attacks that have downed airliners (Korean Air Flight 858) to assassination attempts on the South Korean Prime Minister (Blue House Raid, Rangoon bombing) to abductions of foreign nationals so that they can be used as teachers or laborers in North Korea.

And that's aside from their covert weapons trade including trade in missile and WMD technology. Iran's long range ballistic missile systems, for example, are based mostly off of DPRK technology.

This is why many (including me) believe that US's greatest defense against foreign terrorists attacking US soil is to make the US so supportive of immigrants that attackers would just defect on arrival.

Ever heard of the Amish? Some people aren't all that impressed with the state of the wider world or have any interest in its pleasures.

Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!

The Amish do that by choice.

Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.

Do Amish children do that by choice? But you missed my point.

How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste.

My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.

"Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's?"

Korean culture is at least 2,000 years old, and yes, it's quite homogeneous.

"They would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned"

What in the world are you talking about? Their entire country is an impoverished prison/slave-state, and it's estimated that 2-3 million North Korean people starved to death as recently as the 1990s.

So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd see the outside world as superior.

Too bad they're not given the chance to make that decision for themselves, isn't it?

A good rule of thumb on whether people actually want to live in a country: go to the border and check to see how many of the guns are pointed inward.

Age of the named culture notwithstanding, the cultures have become divergent in the last 40 years due to the Kim family as well as the extremist christian nationalists. You make these broad generalizations about a group of people we as "the world" know very little about. Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion due to the awful treatment received from the Russians. Iraq was a complete wreck, and America still managed to have thousands of adversaries. There are many examples of people acting irrationally in the face of "the facts" of their situation. Your border comment is colorful but misleading. You act as if the guns are cemented pointing one direction.

Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion

I can't imagine that the honeymoon period lasted all that long, given what the Nazis did in the Ukraine. Are you a crazy person?

What "broad generalizations" would those be?

That South Korea allows people to leave if they want, while North Korea doesn't?

That millions of North Koreans have been starved to death or otherwise murdered by their own government?

Sorry, those are facts, your attempts to change the subject notwithstanding.

Good job sighting your sources.

For you to just say, "i know a few Koreans" and "they are 2 thousand years old and therefore predictable" are the generalizations i mentioned.

I am not arguing that NK is doing anything right. Far from it. I just happen to have some familiarity with the subject (my uncle is an adopted Korean refugee, i live in a place that is 30%+/- Korean, i can read more than a web page). It is an ugly problem, but it is the way it is now because of the US and China. Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other. As an American, i want to stay on the side of human rights and personal liberty. Through that lens, both governments are shit (...as well as US and most of Europe.)

"Good job sighting your sources."

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Also:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Korean_peninsula_at_n...

"Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other"

The fact remains that South Koreans are allowed to leave the country, and North Koreans aren't, your attempts to spin some kind of bogus moral equivalence between "dictators" notwithstanding.

So your only metric for "better" is the ability to leave? How do refugees fit into your world view?

[Edit]Excellent links. So much reading to do. Thank you. If the argument of which side of Korea is Better Korea, then it is obvious that it is the South. If the argument is about which side of Korea is Best Korea, then there is no debate.

Do Amish children do that by choice?

Amish children aren't Amish. You have to choose to be Amish as an adult, they are exceedingly strict about that.

edit - If the Amish did mysteriously find themselves in charge of North Korea all of a sudden, by the rules of the Amish within about a year or so, depending on the harvest, there would be a very small Amish state in the middle of a brand new country that would rather confusingly now be called England.

> Do Amish children do that by choice?

Yes, actually. During Rumspringa, they choose whether they want to be members.

What a nice of keeping the community stable and getting rid of the children on whom the brainwashing didn't take.

Presumably you are happy with the brainwashing you received?

Or did you think your current culture is somehow special and the best one ever?

It's utterly disgusting how people call everyone else's culture except their own "brainwashing". Religious? Brainwashed. Atheist? Brainwashed. Likes sports? Brainwashed.

The only time you can legitimately call "brainwashing" is in a culture where there is one "master" person, and everyone else is utterly obedient to them.

It's not brainwashing, that's true. Not for any of the reasons you mention though - I think I'll stick with the generally accepted definition rather than yours - but rather because children are an unwritten page.

To wilfully distort their view on reality deserves a pejorative term, in any case. I guess it's being done by adults who are victims of the same process themselves.

> To wilfully distort their view on reality

And what exactly makes you think that your view on reality is the super best most correct and perfect one?

From their point of view you are the one with a distorted view on reality and perhaps your children should be taken from you before you warp them.

Do you really not see this? Or are you so stuck in your viewpoint that it's utterly impossible for you to imagine anyone having a different viewpoint?

You are attacking a straw man in these posts, attempting to paint a nasty picture of someone you know nothing about.

I know what you are trying to say, and I am old enough to both have experience with people looking down on and attacking my culture, and to see young adults run away in fear because of idiotic notions instilled in them by their culture. I have seen how a lot of control over these kids is through misuse of the kids' trust in their elders.

THEIR ability to see other viewpoints has been damaged beyond repair, for many of them for most of their life. And thus their culture is maintained.

Anyway, enough of this.

Are you really comparing the Amish to the north korean? Are you insane?

I think you missed my point too. Anyway, who says I can't pass "the Amish" and "the north korean" to compare() along with a custom comparator function? Apples can be compared to oranges, you know. For instance, both apples and oranges are fruit, oranges are more orange than apples...

So that would be a yes to both questions then.

forced comparision.

As someone who has spent time with Mennonites as well as Amish i am inclined to agree with you. We wonder if they see the phones and music and bright lights and get depressed or disgruntled. They wonder if we notice the insulation from emotions, they dissolution of our basic family structure, our disobedient and spoiled children, and our ballooning bodies. Perspective is a very important aspect when predicting peoples reactions, and most of the time, we amerifats are just convinced we have it better.

I got your point, but it is sad to see how pervasive the western dominance ideology is, as illustrated by someone calling you insane for being unexpected. Interesting, but largely sad.

The Amish do not have multi-generational prison sentences for disobedience, you just get asked to leave.

North Korea is not some peasant utopia that just wants to be left alone, it is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a ficticious total war.

As for your self titling of we amerifats are just convinced we have it better, well, this belies a core truth, many people suspect you might well have it better simply by so many people in your culture being able to get so fat.

There is a massive difference from a society trying to live simply and one in abject poverty due to mismanagement by a series of crazed mass murderers.

I have read through your comments on this thread. I will respond but i want you to know that i think you are a troll. The worst kind, actually, because you think you actually have a point. You are an undercover troll. you are the Sharon Valeri of trolls. Believing this, i waited for the thread to become vacant to respond to you, you silly billy.

You seem to know very little about the Amish, as everything you have stated about them is Wikipedia grade generalities. They do not need to imprison anyone, as they could just kick anyone out. The system is staggeringly effective, especially if you raise people to believe they belong somewhere but the must make the right series of choices to stay where they belong.

North Korea actually is a peasant utopia that wishes to be alone. (largely peasant population, check. a completely fanciful view of their existence in regards to the world at large, check. wishes to be left alone, infini-check.)

>NK is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a fictitious war. I should email your previous comments to Kim Jong Un; he could use them as justification for sabre rattling. Your observation could be applied to Israel, Pakistan, India, China, and the United States. If you subtract the Nuclear capability, it could be said about every nation on earth with a standing military. The point of a standing army is not the wars you fought, but the ones you will fight.

>...being able to get so fat. There are fatties everywhere. It boggles the mind.

>...by a series of crazed mass murderers. I want to be very clear about this, and i do not want you to be confused about what i am saying:

You are a shill and a simpleton, and you may not play with my blocks, because i do not want to have to wash off the stupid that will inevitably get all over them from your copious amounts of naivety.

Oh, I think you left a rubber duck. If you don't mind, I'm going to keep him and name him Derek.

Kepp him. I didn't want him anyway.

...stupid duck.

sniff

Reply on news.ycombinator.com