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Comment by pessimizer | Hacker News Reader

I don't know who "we" is, but there's nothing abnormal about programmers as programmers. Currently the profession is dominated by a few narrow demographics which have a limited understanding of people outside of those demographics, but that's a social issue, not one that comes along with technical competence.

My major problem with dealing with clients/customers that I'm doing custom work for is that instead of telling me what they do, or what they want to be able to do, in language that they understand, they convert it into their own private techspeak. They incorrectly drop in technical words that they've heard somewhere, and they ask for specific brands of software that they've never seen and often don't understand.

I am a normal person. Tell me your goals and your problems in plain English, and I'll figure out how to get it done. I'm pretty good at it, and if I can't help you I can probably find you someone who can.

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I don't even think that this is even a case of that. The writer is obviously not a programmer (he even uses the "Some of my best friends are x" line where x is some type of person you are trying to convince people you don't hate). It seems to me that the writer is trying to peg programmers into a hole where all we do is say "We have to do this with the newest CSS Framework using the neatest database and the coolest programming language." And I think that's clearly a load of crap.

What bothers me most about this is the idea that programmers are some kind of underclass that just doesn't get "normal" people. The truth is that we're people too who have a lot of the same needs as "normal" people.

You're probably right. I may have been making the mistake of thinking that he was representative of a some large contingent of programmers just because of the "we." Marketing works:)

yeah it's weird, we are one the one hand said to be an underclass of social rejects, and on the other hand said to be immensely privileged. And on top of that, somehow being losers makes us more privileged, since it keeps normal people who don't want to be losers out of the profession. Go figure.

> What bothers me most about this is the idea that programmers are some kind of underclass that just doesn't get "normal" people. The truth is that we're people too who have a lot of the same needs as "normal" people.

I think the author was simply trying to articulate a rift that sometimes occurs between a party with a (perceived or actual) problem and the party with solutions for that problem. According to his barbershop example, that problem/solution rift is the result of a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem statement. If I could abstract the article in one sentence, I would say, "If you are trying to solve a problem that you yourself do not have, make sure you actually understand the problem from the perspective of the party you are solving it for before you go building things."

The author may have gone a bit far in generalizing programmers/engineers, but would you agree it is fair to say that it is easy enough for _anyone_ to fall into the aforementioned trap if they are not conscious of it?

An occurring theme I have noticed while speaking with people (not just engineers and/or programmers) is that we have a tendency to project ourselves on other people. I don't think that is a bad thing in moderation (that's a different matter of discourse), but I have had at least two different conversations with entrepreneurs where they simply could not for the life of them understand why someone would rather "just get a job working for someone else" than start their own company. It simply does not register in their world view that someone does not share their way of thinking. My anecdote is tangential at best, but my point is that the object of the article is not to diminish programmers. Rather, it is to elevate the perspective of those subject to a certain myopia that they would otherwise not think to confront.

Successful product management is exactly closing that rift. Product management is distinct from either programming (making things) or sales (selling things to people).

The argument made in the article is "you are a programmer. Therefore you don't get product management techniques nor sales. Therefore you should buy my book."

It's a typical sales technique: Creating a sense of inadequacy in your target and right away offering a solution.

If you're cynical, you will notice that there's no guarantee of any kind that the solution you're being sold on actually helps. Because, people good at sales are more likely to be good at selling you random things than to be effective teachers of the knowledge they're claiming for themselves.

patio11 did a lot of good in actually teaching people to look at a market that's not themselves, but there are a lot of people following him who primarily want to make money with e-books because that is their most effective way of monetizing their skills in the absence of any ability to build products.

You are not a normal person, for there are no such things.

One perceive oneself as not abnormal when one tends to conform to societal norm and peer expectation. It is desirable to not be perceived as abnormal, because abnormality carries a stigma and being perceived as abnormal often leads to rejection.

Yes yes yes. I find that I often have to work backward from a tortured spec to figure out what they are actually trying to get done, so that I can then work out a solution and eventually implementation. And clients have never complained when I ditched their plans as long as my proposal helped them more.

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