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Comment by toyg | Hacker News Reader

In fairness, as an EU citizen, I'd say most justice systems the world over are just shit.

Sure, the rich and connected will get all sorts of rights and protections, but if you are Mr. Nobody (and worse, you were not born and bred in the specific area where you're being accused) then some sort of abuse is almost guaranteed. Look at the news in places like UK, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Canada: people "spontaneously" die in police custody, are killed in the street while unarmed, spend years in jail for crimes they didn't commit, spend months in custody before even being accused of anything... and these are just the ones we hear about. My father occasionally had to look after kids who had some brush up with the Law, in Italy; long story short, once you enter The System, you can kiss goodbye to any sense of respect, self-worth or personal rights.

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Sure, there are problems everywhere, but you cannot compare the level of bullshit in the states. Just look at the statistics on Wikipedia, and the many documentaries on YouTube and newspaper articles on it.

Yeah if you're poor and vulnerable you're screwed anywhere in the capitalist world. But in the states you're screwed even if you are middle class (absurd bails) and have a good lawyer, because the government is so over its head that they will jail you with fabricated evidence and then give you no chance of justice.

True, the UK is not much better than the US. But otherwise many countries in Europe are incomparably safer. If not because of more reasonable justice systems, just because people are more laid back and sane here than in the states.

>just because people are more laid back and sane here than in the states.

Are they? I distinctly remember the post-riot reactions in London last summer: people got sentenced to years of imprisonment for posting banter on Facebook and Twitter, with full support from mainstream public opinion. Because we're all cool until you touch private property, and then it's HANG THE THIEF! And if you think that's just Brits being Brits, I can show you the electoral results of people like LePen, Wilders, Haider, and the laws this pressure produced...

Do not make the error of confusing historical development with the essence of man: we might look more laid back and "civilised" because of accidents of history that bestowed us a set of marginally saner laws and a bit more perspective (and recent memory), but underneath we're as brutal as anyone else on the planet.

The riots were in 2011. The punishments were for a different thing. Still, these were really bad punishments. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/16/uk-riots-four-year... . The UK policing approach is more of a middle-class order authoritarianism, "we want to stop this rotten bunch of oiks" rather than "my ego and promotion are founded on jailing anyone I can find", which seems to be the case in much of the US. Nobody was nabbed for just bantering, though, as it seems this kid was, although "just a restraining order" suggests some queries. But knowing what the US cops are (in)capable of, I'm appalled again by the system where they want to put as many people in jail as possible. This was, however, excessive.

A note on rhetoric: I'm glad you mentioned this because I'd forgotten about those convictions. But please Do give links as justification, because you do your arguments a disservice by loose argumentationm and hyperbole.

Apologies, my internal sense of time basically became just a long blur after my first child in 2009 :)

I take your point on sourcing.

But otherwise many countries in Europe are incomparably safer.

You mean like how there was no protection against double jeopardy for Amanda Knox?

A single counter-example from a single country in Europe on the basis of a looser version of double jeopardy protections does not have any bearing on a claim that many countries in Europe (of ~50 or so) are safer, though. It does not even demonstrate that Italy isn't safer.

I'm not going to defend the Italian justice system - it's indefensible. But it's a fact that it is MUCH more likely to go to prison in the US than in Europe - just read the numbers.

Yeah, but in the US, if you are white and middle class, prison is something that happens to someone else. Look at the numbers.

The US prison-industrial complex can't be legitimately defended. The way it targets black and poor people in order to provide profit to private parties is something one might otherwise think only happened in China.

But this case is abuse of a whole different kind and on a level which is strikes at issues beyond the norm/

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