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Comment by tyd | Hacker News Reader

university is free in most european countries

University (degree level) cost != PhD cost

In the UK, in the sciences, a PhD place comes with funding from a research council. An institute gets funding for places, which they award.

For arts subjects (I believe), an application by the student for a particular project is made to a funding body. It is possible, however, to fund yourself if you cannot get funding. I know a very dedicated person who did this, funding with part time work. He's now a lecturer in a good university in the UK.

My understanding is that you're never guaranteed RC funding and, also, the cost of doing so is that you have to do the research particular to that grant; so you've either got to hope for something related to your field, or go for something close enough to keep you interested. I've heard (sorry: no citations) that here in the UK, around 60% of PhDs are actually self-funded -- to pay the tuition fees, mostly -- and while I don't know the breakdown, that also includes research in the sciences. The upside of self-funding is that you're free to research what you want, within reason (i.e., it's actually worthwhile, the university agrees and you can find a supervisor, etc.)

Not in England and here in Scotland they are "free" to Scottish students studying in Scotland. If someone from out Scotland comes here to study then fees are charged and if a Scottish student goes elsewhere in the UK then fees are charged.

Not quite right - in Scotland, it's actually free for all EU students EXCEPT for English, Welsh, and Northern Irish students. And as mentioned above, it's free in the sense that students don't pay, but it's all subsidised by SAAS organisation. (nothing in life is "free", right?)

Thanks - I didn't know about that. Seems rather unfair to the rest of the UK then....

The explanation given to me was: it is possible to discriminate between students from different parts of an individual member state but not to discriminate against those from other parts of the EU.

Exactly that, plus Scots going to study in England had to pay their fees.

As a side note though, if Scotland becomes independent when voted later on this year, then "Thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish students will study at Scottish universities for free" [1]

[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/102...

if Scotland becomes independent ... "... English, Welsh and Northern Irish students will study at Scottish universities for free..."

This assumes that an independent Scotland would be a member of the EU, which is far from certain:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/impossible...

If Scotland leaves the UK then there isn't a UK anymore - so why would England, Wales and NI still be in the EU? :-)

i.e. If a country splits into two parts surely you have two new countries.

> “So it is to some extent a similar case because it’s a new country and so I believe it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the others.”

See this is where everything just gets confusing... Scotland already IS a country by itself, as is England, NI, and Wales, so if Scotland were to become independent, it would in no way be a "new" country, would it? mhhhh, my head hurts.

Is Scotland really a country, in the sense that we usually understand the word?

It's difficult to answer, but I'd say yes. It doesn't in the sense that Scotland (nor does England, NI, Wales) have its own embassy in other countries, etc. All members of the United Kingdom are tightly integrated (e.g. Scotland doesn't issue money, but privately held banks-e.g. Bank of Scotland-do print money on behalf of central government) so it's really difficult to say but for the most part, it's more of its own country than now, I'd say.

There is no hard-and-fast rule as to what makes a country (aka "Nation State").

However, there are a few clues:

- Issues its own currency

- Recognised as a sovereign state by other countries

- Taxes its people

- Issues passports and polices its borders

The UK does all of these. As far as I'm aware Scotland does at most 1 of them.

A couple of other notes:

- Privately-held banks don't print money on behalf central government. Those 'Bank of Scotland' notes bear a promise (obligation) made by the Bank of Scotland, and not by any government.

- That England, NI, Wales don't have their own embassy in other countries is irrelevant. I'm not arguing that they are countries.

it's more of its own country than now, I'd say.

Do you live in Scotland?

It's all very confusing then really... Scotland does issue its own money, but it's a shared currency (just the same as the Euro is a shared currency but countries that use the Euro issue their own). So would that count? Debatable.

No country within the United Kingdom itself issues passports, so for example you cannot have an English passport. They are all British Citizens who hold British passports (which confusingly isn't a UK passport, but a passport for Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

I'm really not sure how tax works in the UK. Scotland as well as other UK members all tax, but how that is then divided up internally, I have no idea...

When you say the UK does all of these, that doesn't mean England, NI, or Wales does all of them itself.

When I say they are printed on behalf of the government, I meant that the government decides how much money is printed. As far as I'm aware, Scottish banks who have the right to print money (e.g. Bank of Scotland) cannot simply print as much money as they would like. They're printing it on behalf of the governments guidelines etc. Confusingly though, Scottish printed money isn't even legal tender, not even in Scotland.

And anyway, I'm not arguing for Scotland's independence, but it seems to me that people usually think England is more of a country than Scotland. They're both part of the United Kingdom equally really.

It's common in the Nordics: Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway all do it.

Not in Italy nor the Netherlands.

Well in the Netherlands it's 1800 euros a year for Dutch students, so that's not free but still very inexpensive.

(note that it's significantly more expensive for foreign students though)

Currently you do not have to pay a dime to do a PhD in the Netherlands. In fact, you are almost surely an employee of the university (not a "student") and get a salary of 2300+ EUR (gross) a month.

The 1.8k EUR applies to MA/MSc/BA. If part of the requirement to do a PhD is a to do a MSc degree and the programme is joint you might get a waver from the university for that 1.8k EUR. Also, most Dutch get that money back through the government stipend programme that "lends" people about 250EUR a month and gives them free travel across the whole country. At today's prices this package is worth 4000+ EUR. You only have to pay back that loan if you do not graduate in time (=+1 year of what is the duration of the programme), if you do graduate the loan is considered paid. Foreign students can get on this action by working one day a week, somewhere (incl. TA/RA/etc.). And then there are also various subsidies that students often qualify for. It is not unheard of to see a student in the Netherlands sporting 10k+ EUR income by working one day a week.

>Foreign students can get on this action by working one day a week, somewhere (incl. TA/RA/etc.).

This has changed, I used to get this but since 2014 my job (10 hours a week) does not qualify for it anymore. I think the new regulations allow only people working more than 16 hours per-week (not 100% sure on the exact number).

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