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Comment by 27182818284 | Hacker News Reader

Something I feel this article misses is the market outside of the coasts of the US. If you are one of those PhDs who isn't actively seeking to be a janitor for the relaxation involved, and you're struggling for work, please look at the Midwest or so-called No Coast.

There are tons of well-paying jobs in the Midwest for talented people. Salaries are lower than a standard San Francisco job, but the quality of life is so much higher here it makes up for it. The multi-million dollar homes of Oakland and San Francisco can be yours here on a single person's salary working about 40 hours a week. (Admittedly winters here are worse, but if you do have to drive somewhere, wow you had to pay $5 or $9 for the whole day of parking in a garage 50ft from your door.) http://www.siliconprairienews.com/2014/03/it-manager-full-st...

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If anybody wants to do a little virtual house hunting for no-coast housing, I highly recommend the show "House Hunters" (the International version "House Hunters International" is also great) on HGTV. They also have some similar companion shows like Property Virgins, Hawaii Life, "Buying and Selling" and "Property Borthers" and it's pretty informative as to what local markets are like all over the place.

The format is basically the same every show, somebody wants to move someplace, in 30 minutes they give a brief description of what they're looking for and their budget to a real estate agent. The agent then shows them 3 homes in the area. They pick one of the homes and then finally you see how they've moved in and decorated the place 2 or 3 months later. Along the way you get to see a little bit of the area they're looking in.

The other shows have similar, but slightly different formats or spins on the basic concept. But House Hunters has the show format down to a concise science.

There are episodes where my jaw absolutely drops to the floor seeing how much house and property they can get for their money. For what my garage costs I've seen people get 2 floor 2500 sq ft homes with a detached garage structure and half an acre.

Of course other places are equally depressing and have pretty much destroyed life-long dreams to move to a nicer climate for retirement. However, House Hunters International has shown me some new candidates that look like they'd work very well on a retirement income.

http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv40/videos/index.html?xp=hh

I'm a fan of the Midwest in general and love the seasons (even in MN) but I don't know that the jobs are there. My friend in Madison (a very intelligent "ABD" who, as often happens in math PhD programs, burned out) got $45,000 in his first programming job because his company had no competition. Even now, I doubt he's higher than $90,000.

As for leaving SF/Boston/NYC, I moved to Baltimore, which is not the Midwest and actually not that cheap. The two-body problem is a big part of why the "star cities" are so attractive. I like Baltimore-- it's way better than its reputation, although that ain't saying much-- but when I next search for a job, I'll probably find more outside of Baltimore than inside. Also, there's that two-body issue. This move has been good for my career but so-so for my wife's, because there aren't many good companies here. We shouldn't have to choose between one career or the other and, in the long run, we won't. The costs of housing in San Francisco and New York are fucking criminal (literally, if you look into the NIMBY issues) but knowing that both you and your spouse will be able to find high-quality jobs for 10+ years is the draw. I'd rather live in Minneapolis than San Francisco, but I'm pretty sure we could live in San Francisco, career-wise, for at least a decade. Are there going to be VP-level-but-mostly-coding machine learning positions in Minneapolis in 2024? Not a clear call. And cross-country moves are stressful and just get harder with age.

Of course, San Francisco and New York spit you out if you don't become, at least in pay grade, Director-level by child-raising age. To be honest, I don't think we'll move to either of those cities when we next relocate, because even though we'll be able to afford it the expensiveness is horrible for the culture. We ranked cities independently and Seattle topped both of our lists; it's affordable (if not exactly cheap) and beautiful and neither of us has a problem with 50-degree cloudy days. (In MN that was called "Early May".)

I thought the correct acronym was ABCD?

Besides the weather, two body problems are one reason why the mid-west is unappealing, but also your earnings generally scale with living expenses, meaning you have more disposable income to spend on things whose price is fixed across the country.

Seattle is my first choice for when I finally move back to the states, but I grew up in the area. You have to be OK with 3 or 4 months of rain, however.

Abd is "all but doctorate". ABCD is an american with indian parents.

ABD stands for "All but Dissertation".

Ah! Never heard of the former before. PhD students usually wash out after quals, I don't know of anyone who stops just before defending!

I hear the term a lot when PhD students are hunting for faculty jobs (i.e. trying to get a job lined up before defending their dissertation with the hope that they do so before their start date.)

"ABD" tends to be "all but dissertation" - a PhD student who has completed course work, qualification exams, research proposal, and possibly other requirements, but has not yet written or defended his doctoral dissertation.

> "your earnings generally scale with living expenses"

My understanding is that earnings scale by city, but not as steeply as living expenses, for most people in the software world. You might make 10-20% less in a largeish city in the midwest than you would in Seattle or the Bay Area, but your house costs 60-80% less and most other things cost 10-20% less.

Thought of a different way: for 10-20% less than a low-end 600 square foot condo in Mountain View, you can buy a 4000 square foot house on half an acre in Denver. Sure, there's a lot more to consider -- weather, proximity to family, the specific job offers and costs you're likely to incur. But your money goes a lot farther than you might realize in flyover country.

The companies will often argue the N% discount on wages is directly related to the N% reduced living expenses, which is of course insane. It is impossible to even to begin to justify making $75k in St. Louis if you can make $150k in San Francisco, housing costs and living expenses are not that crazily different.

People in richer cities travel more internationally, they do and buy things that many Midwesterners would never even dream of doing. A Mercedes is similar in cost in New York as it is in Cleveland. The wages are lower because the living standards are lower, it's not just about living expenses.

> "It is impossible to even to begin to justify making $75k in St. Louis if you can make $150k in San Francisco"

The data suggests the divide is not nearly that large for the majority of software engineers. More like $80-90k in flyover country vs $100k in Seattle or $110k in SF -- and a lot of those gains are wiped out by higher taxes. Having $20k less net income and $20k less net housing expenses each year works out about even, and you can still buy the same number of Mercedes or international trips.

Sure, if you're one of those rare few at the top of the food chain who could be making $200k in St Louis or $500k in the bay area, it's hard to justify living in St Louis. But there are plenty of people in software who justify living in the middle of the country because the "lower" salary is quite competitive for them (as always, do the math for yourself) and they like the lifestyle/weather/whatever.

For reference, I lived in Seattle for 10 years and Denver for 20, and I've always been around software engineers (including my wife and my father.) I know the standard of living the majority of software engineers have in both places. I also keep up with software engineers (family, former coworkers, and school friends) in other areas like NY, Chicago, Baltimore, and the bay area. My software engineer friends in "rich" cities didn't do or buy anything particularly different or more exotic than my software engineer friends in Denver.

> housing costs and living expenses are not that crazily different.

Are you really sure you're familiar with housing in those two cities? I am, intimately so, and the difference is huge. It's absolutely crazily different. St. Louis is dirt cheap compared to San Francisco. SF housing is most certainly well more than twice as expensive.

Also, I think your salary gap isn't necessarily representative of the norm. $75k is closer to starting salary in many medium-COL cities, and $150k is definitely not the starting salary for the vast majority of developers in San Francisco. Most start at something like $100k, which is actually borderline worse than $75k in certain cheaper areas (especially those without state income taxes, like Texas).

All that said, I agree that one should probably take $150k in SF over $75k in St. Louis. I just disagree with the nuances of your post, based on experience.

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