How the secret police tracked my childhood | Hacker News Reader

How the secret police tracked my childhood

m.bbc.com

189 pointsghosh56 comments

Modern Belarus (well, it was in 2006 - 2008.) Me and some of my friends and their friends get together to organize some opposition performances or participation in national opposition events. As well as distributing printed gazette. No any kind of extremism or terrorism or whatever "-ism". I was probably the oldest one back then, around 22 yrs, the rest guys and gals were 18-20 yrs. All are students either at community college or getting their bachelors.

I was stopped randomly in car traffic because my car was "reported stolen" just to get every single piece of the car out trying to find "illegal" printed materials. One of these guys in our team also snitched for local police (so they recruited someone, i still don't know whom.) They tapped my cell phone and were able to meet us at place which was mentioned over one single cellphone talk...

My very small business suddenly became in focus of various state agencies, like IRS, fire department, etc. Each was able to find something to fine me for. I closed it.

It got to the point where my mom had "interview" with KGB where they openly told, that if she can't influence my behavior, probably I will never get my masters degree, my sister will never get into college, my mom will likely loose her job.

At some point I was "invited" to talk with local police chef about my "disturbances". At that time I already worked out a way to get out from Belarus for good and told about it to this police guy. He was very satisfied with this response from what I could see...

This was happening 6 years ago and from what I hear, still does. At least they did not prison and torture me, although it is probably more because I never cause too much trouble for them and was dismissed as not very important person to deal with.

Are your family fine and with you? Do you get to meet/call/email these friends now?

Once I moved out - everything is back to normal for my rest of family. They sometimes call my family to check if I am back, but getting "no" answer each time.

Yeah, with some of these friends I keep in touch.

So it played out well for me and my family. But definitely not for the people of Belarus.

Something similar but a little toned down still happens in Romania too.

For instance if you ruffle the wrong feathers your business may get "surprise inspections" from every government agency known to man.

And guess what they will always find a reason to fine your.

I am a Romanian and I lived through all three systems. Why I say three: I lived 10 years through the worst period of communism, 10 through the savage transition and more than 10 through the crony capitalism.

And although I pay a lot for not leaving with all the waves of brain drain, it deserves all I pay to experience this, all three systems are so similar, the way they sell themselves is different.

At least they had the chance to survey those files and learn from them. Imagine us survey our files at NSA, GCHQ or any other services that gets its targets from linkedin. It will never happen.

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."

-- John Kenneth Galbraith

> all three systems are so similar

Although when the father went back to Romania, no one tried to hold him in prison for 10 years and torture him, so perhaps something has changed - no?

Your argument would have been very powerful if I would have said that the system is identical. Of course it changed, but is similar in structure, upward mobility, morality etc. Of course it had other ways for rewarding dissidents: by not caring about them.

Many of whom where not really integrated in the economic reality, and this time would fight a harsher world, at least in communism they had the support of those who hated communism. Many withered away in poverty, anonymity and alcohol. They tried to avert us that many of those holding power where from the same circles as the previous regime but to no avail.

What are you talking about? Romania has secret prisons where people are held without trial and tortured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/world/europe/08iht-prisons...

So you don't think it has changed?

Because in your country, just like in mine (Russia) it's not about the system, but the people. We don't know how to have a democracy, we have no idea how to be decent human beings, we do not how to deal with power, we do not know how to deal with money. We can change system as much as we want, we cannot change ourselves. This is the depressing reality of our countries.

In any given region, you will likely see a lot of extreme savagery if you go back in time far enough. So, everything and everybody can change, given enough time. You yourself are just demonstrating it, too, by being depressed by the state of things, instead of assuming that's just the way it has to be, right? :)

You have a point. 'Western' liberalism has its roots in the Magna Carta of England, sparking the idea that the individuals have rights over the the state. This tradition, coupled with the enlightenment and the idea of liberal democracies has a very long history in Britain, and bequeathed to the US and other places around the world. It's not easy to just adopt these practices wholesale without understanding the fundamental concepts from which they spring.

I think you should have hope for your people and your countries - these ideas are contagious and we live in a world of instant communication and instant spread of ideas. Each generation hence will work towards improvement as long as they continue the fight against oppressive authoritarian socialist states re-emerging.

I had hope until our president invaded our neighbor. But I agree, things like more or less free communication, better educated population and politicians that are at least held accountable by their western counterparts and the rise of the global economy will most likely improve things for the better rather than worsen the situation.

Your analysis is spot on though as a lot of our 'misery' is engrained in our culture and that simply takes more/longer to change than merely switching government.

It seems so because the system hasn't really changed. Only the flag did.

It will take at least a generation to transition out of the current system. If people work hard at that goal. If they don't it will take even longer.

This is what eastern Europeans need to understand.

I beg to differ. Sure, some problems still remained even though the systems changed, but I find the situation has improved significantly in the past 15 years (I'm not counting the neo-communism years after the 89 revolution). There still are corruption scandals, but for better or worse people have learned they have their rights, and if someone breaks the law they can be held accountable, no matter who they are. And as bad as we like to think our political class is, the democratic process is not really being undermined. And economically, sure, the living standard is still well below the EU average, but the economy is functional. And if you're talented and hardworking, there is nothing stoping you from becoming wealthy. My grandparents were in a similar situation to the one described in the article, and the communist state persecuted them throughout their lives. Simply knowing for a fact that one's rights and property are respected can make a big difference in the quality of people's lives in my opinion. So yeah, I think there are systems that are inherently better than others. And while there still are things to fix in Romania, we've changed a lot in the last 25 years.

"In a refugee centre in Rome we had been taught that Americans, when they ask "How are you?" don't really expect an answer"

Still true. I responded to someone's 'How are you?' yesterday with an actual status report, and they were taken aback.

I always respond with an actual status report.

If you're not interested then stop pretending to care.

Plus getting people off balance is always fun.

> getting people off balance is always fun.

Also fun by actually remembering the names of new people.

I work in a hospital. I ask every patient how they are today and 99% say "fine" or "good". The odd one that doesn't and says something like "I'm awful, that's why I'm here" is always interesting to chat to. I suspect that the majority of what we say is completely scripted and as such is startling when someone chucks a spanner into the works.

I expect a real answer when I ask it.

When I emit a NULL+POLITE+INVITATION linguistic token ("How's it going?"), I expect to either hear a NULL+POLITE+NONCOMMITAL ("Fine.") or a mood-conveying linguistic token ("Awful [and I will talk to you about why, if you're interested]."). I don't expect to hear actual conversational content until after I confirm whether I actually want to talk ("What happened?") or whether I was just being polite ("I hope you feel better.").

If I don't want to talk at all, I will use a simpler NULL+POLITE token ("Good morning.") without the implicit invitation to open a conversation.

It isn't that Americans don't expect a response. It's just that most Americans have different handshake formulas for starting a conversation. People who skip the initial negotiation might be perceived as chatty.

Brazil for some reason imported this weird US custom.

It bothers me.

Thankfully, my startup associate, that is french, when he asks that, I know he probably means it (I always reply to him truthfully, even if he dislikes the answer...)

...where every email or message to a friend has to start with "Tudo bem?", to not seem rude. And the answer? "Tudo bem!" Like in French ("ça va?").

I never start e-mail messages with that...

Noone ever complained.

In fact I rarely use that, much less at the start of a conversation (I might use it as courteous reply if the other person ask first, and I ask that to actually close people, like my associate, my SO, my parents...)

The UK has this too, in a slightly different form: If someone says "Alright?"* to you, the correct response is "Alright." Linguistically it could be either a reciprocation of the question, or an affirmative answer, it isn't well defined. It could be translated as "'sup?", which I believe in US english is responded to with a corresponding "sup." "Alright mate" is basically "Yo!" or just "Hello."

If you respond with "fine, thanks" then that would not seem out of place either. You can mumble back pretty much anything and people will be happy with it. British english is very loosely defined like that.

* it should probably be spelled "Allright" but that looks totally wrong to me, it isn't pronounced as two words at all.

so... when's the appropriate time for "you wot mate?"

When you would have otherwise said, "WTF dude?"

Whenever anyone says something you don't like, or you just fancy a fight. That's pretty advanced stuff. Best to get the basics right first: correct application and composition of the words "safe," "fair," "sound," "nice one," "proper" and "bruv" should be your first concern.

You may wish to consult this instructional video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qksndNDMDOw

In reality it is more like 'orright?'

"good, good, yourself?"

Unless its a relative or friend and they are actually asking because of some event. Everyone else is just being polite and checking if it is an ok time to talk.

An important thing to understand intellectually, I think -- whether or not you can understand it in terms or your own experience -- is that this is actually really difficult for some people, for whatever reason.

I understand your advice, intellectually, but when I am in the immediate circumstance, it can nonetheless be hard for me to go into and remain in "superficial" mode. It's not my natural form of communication; also, when it extends beyond just the greeting, it can become difficult and frustrating.

I find it not very efficient nor productive towards actually understanding the other person or situation and reaching a useful mutual understanding, whether just at a social level or in the course of some specific problem solving.

Again, this may not "make sense" to some reading my comment. But it is the way I and I think some others experience dealing with things such as "How are you?" and "(Very) Good/Great/Fine..." and "Well", of course... as evaluating to "Hey" or even [null expression].

The flipside is that the other party does genuinely communicate, we tend to be able to communicate a much greater understanding more quickly and with fewer errors and need for longer term follow-up and repetition. In my experience...

People can sometimes be frustrated with the amount I communicate. Until they realize later that I actually though of and told them exactly what they needed to know to deal with a situation, and they didn't have to come back and ask me anything further -- nor correct a mistake caused by a lack of understanding.

Over time, they tend to learn that if I am telling them something, it is probably for a good reason -- even if they don't see it, yet.

"I find it not very efficient nor productive towards actually understanding the other person or situation and reaching a useful mutual understanding"

General greetings like that aren't meant to. Its just an ENQ and I'm giving an ACK. Either I have time to talk or I don't and my next actions tell the story. It might be one of those regional things, but its not something to dwell on too much when encountered since its just superficial politeness.

They bought two typewriters, one of which they did not register with the police...

Evil regimes hate anonymous communication.

My father was sentenced to 11 years at the harshest prison of all, Aiud, for "fraudulent crossing of the border, punishable with art. 267 of the penal code".

Evil regimes love to make it a crime to try to leave the living hell they have created. And look how official-sounding the law is. People who uncritically accept the government's position will think, "Well, the man did something fraudulent, after all... surely he deserves some punishment."

Will we ever get to read the files that the NSA, GCHQ and the CIA are keeping on us today?

Only if you attempt to rise above your station peasant; Otherwise it will stay in the store room

Does a freedom of information request give you the data that the NSA collects on you?

NSA is not covered by FOIA. Try making a request on FOIA.gov, they aren't even in the list of agencies.

We'll have to raid NSA HQ before they... wipe their HDDs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Storming_the_Stasi_headqu...

Some people tried this when the first Snowden leaks came out, and were promptly shut down with a response that revealing what information they had on that individual would indirectly reveal what information they had on everyone, thereby threatening national security.

> thereby threatening national security.

A couple words missing:

... thereby threatening the national security agency.

The security services of the eastern bloc were terribly inefficient; just imagine how effective they could be today!

The funny part is there are more police-men now, then during communism.

With so many informants why would you need police men.

Statistically every 10th person you met at that time was most likely as intelligence service informant.

What surprises me with all this detailed record keeping is the sheer cost of all this -manual- security apparatus. Sure, not every resident was a 'dissident' to be monitored, but it sounds like this family had a team of ten people working their case, round the clock.

I suppose a lot of the informants and plants were not paid, but forced to participate through threats, but it still seems like a staggering amount of organization at incredible cost.

Yes, and the interesting thing about that is how few dissidents it would have taken to completely overwhelm their ability to keep an eye on them.

Sounds awfully familiar - my dad's story and his experience with the GDR's police state and socialist totalitarianism was quite similar. It's really a chilling account and makes you appreciate every tiny bit of freedom.

It still amazes me that the US accepted political refugees from the eastern bloc. Their involvement in Romania was extremely thin. From what I can tell it was just Voice of America propaganda[1] and the unfounded rumor that american saviors are coming any day now.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America#Law

You need to understand the scope of surveillance, its primitive basis:

    Magical Combat should be differentiated from psychic attack,
    with which a large proportion of 'fringe' occultists concern themselves 
    with, and is largely a product of self-delusion and varying degrees of 
    megalomania. True magical combat has its own rules and boundaries, 
    which are known to the skilled, while the trainee must quickly learn 
    them if trauma is to be avoided. Caught up in a situation which s/he 
    finds incomprehensible and alien, the trainee only knows confusion 
    and terror. Stripped of the smug self-assurance of "it can't happen to 
    me" s/he learns to perceive the environment with clarity, to give attention 
    to the rhythms and pulses of the world. Truly, Death is a great teacher. 
    If you can reach forwards and see the moment of your 'death', then that 
    moment will give you a glimpse of your potential.[0]

Look at this from a naturalistic framework. Jesus, for instance, may have simply been a very eccentric man who behaved linguistically and personally in ways that were revolutionary. He probably induced too many magic mushrooms, or some atypical neurological condition set him extremely intuitively in line with a mystical tradition — nevertheless, these are historical implementation details of this Universe. Not uniquely interesting either way you describe it.

Now imagine that these features of a society become more widespread — where you have {J1, J2, J3, ...}, then imposters, {I1, I2, I3, ...}, and then of course randoms, {R1, R2, R3, ...}. This is an oversimplified model, but it captures the problem well enough.

Surveillance becomes a psychological management strategy that naturally emerges given the task of ruling out true adepts (altruistics) and delusionists (potentials who cannot manage their own psychic powers).

"Psychic powers" does not amount to some belief in the supernatural. If I mention the word "chair", this will not sit with you as mental residue (surely, contextual and relational analysis apply, but on the whole it will not) — but if you take recourse to JL Austin's "How to Do Things With Words" — you will certainly need to shake off words like "preapopstaticontinentalism". The first point is that a speaker has produced the word, then it comes that decision procedure of whether or not it has literal meaning. The brain has to do work — which is the basis of "psychic forces" (reducible to behaviors of neurological substrata).

—

[0]: http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/apikindx.html

I was confused, until I realized that the parent post itself was a form of psychic attack. You are supposed to be confused by it.

Also, I erect a Tower of Iron Will around the party. (rolls d20)

Heh.

I hope you spent some extra power points on that, because PR 19 is not enough here. So confused.

I hope that more people who believe in a "new collaborative economy" for America come across stories like this.

???

Well, like in this article [1] on the front page yesterday, there's a sentiment that individual rights and private property per capitalism should give way to something more "collaborative." Only "collaborative" is not new, it stinks of failed historical experiments and the exact kind of repression described in this article in Romania.

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/31/capital...

Connecting those two stories is a real stretch. Sorry.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com