Comment by jmzbond | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jmzbond | Hacker News Reader

A year ago, I would have thought that the antidote to burnout was start-up culture. I'm a little less naive about it now.

The reality is that you can burnout in any of these ways whether or not you're a corporate monkey or a start-up monkey. Substitute vending machines and water coolers for fancy free-for-all-cafes and foosball tables, and many start-ups have similar WORK demands of their employees. In other words, no matter how fun the culture, it can't forever mask the fact that you're working toward someone else's vision and mission.

I once thought this would be very different in a company of 50 vs 50,000. But even in start-ups, we suffer from an over-emphasis on specialized activities (for efficiency and scale). This creates jobs that lack ownership of the big picture, and therefore may create short term excitement (if the work or team is interesting), but does not equate to long term passion and fulfillment.

As a founder with an idea, part of the reason that I don't want to join an existing effort is because I want to build an organization that challenges this model. Is there a way to better distribute ownership of the vision to everyone in the company so that instead of having a bunch of employees working toward your vision, you have a bunch of entrepreneurs collaborating to define that vision? That in my mind is a major part of avoiding burnout.

The secondary piece is helping people realize that work/life balance is always necessary. As a founder, I spent one month subscribing to the Valley norm that I should just work constantly. Mentally I was fine, but physically I pinched a nerve (or something) and all kinds of horror happened. Yet this cultural attitude of fast fast fast is so prevalent, I think we should also do more to encourage people to adopt some "slow" principles.

I would say that start-up culture is the perfect breeding ground for burnout.

#1 cause: lack of a mature organization. No clarity, no process, no structure, constant uncertainty and bosses that clearly have no idea what the fuck they are doing.

Collective ownership, treating employees like entrepreneurs even though they are very different people with a different mindset and different coping mechanisms is not just misguided, it's downright destructive.

Employees are not entrepreneurs, they have a different mindset and different coping mechanisms. They can handle the uncertainty of a starting company that may very well fail, they can handle long hours, but they need certainty about the nature of their job, what is expected of them and their coworkers. Not having that structure makes them extremely vulnerable to any kind of stress, stress that a startup job is guaranteed to have.

It frankly pisses me off how badly employees at startups are treated by not recognizing their needs as employees. No amount of toys, free snacks and other gimmicks will compensate for that.

You typically don't see that big picture when you're 20 - it's hard not to see it at 40. Probably another reason the stereotypical "startup" employee skews younger.

To be explicit: younger workers are much easier to exploit.

If all younger workers realized this and acted collectively, the impact would be immense. Instead, SV is overrun with temporarily-embarrassed entrepreneurs.

I agree, but I also think investors have bought a narrative of a young organization that breaks things and learns. Part of that narrative is great and it keeps tech fresh and young. I just wish there were a way to have a better dialog or working relationship between generations. Historically humans have been able to work well intergenerationally, so I think there's something endemic to our culture that prevents this from happening.

There are some great pieces I've read about the generational divide (I'm sure they've been on here at some point)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/magazine/silicon-valleys-y...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-b...

This is a great perspective, and the corollary of mine. If you're a start-up and you're building a culture where everyone literally is an entrepreneur, maybe you can be more successful, but most start-ups don't have this culture and still expect employees to be super entrepreneurial when they're actually functioning as employees. Everyone loses.

Agreed, I'm not in a startup or working in tech; I am self-employed, but burnout has hit me. I thought I would be endlessly motivated as my own boss. I actually felt the exact moment of its onset, it was at the conclusion of a two month period of being very busy. It was euphoric to be very busy and having people knocking down your door to give you money. But then I entered a slow period, and had to start doing the work, and I've lost so much motivation. I want to pack up shop and start something new; I'm rationalizing this by telling myself "that's what serial entrepreneurs do."

Does anyone have strategies on how to deal with this? I took a vacation but came back surprisingly still lacking motivation. I exercise and enjoy it, but after the exercise high I'm back to the same mental state. It's a complete 180-degree shift in mindset from where I was just 40 days ago.

I pretty much share your experience. I have found that this tends to hit me whenever I work alone. Two things fixed this for me ... somewhat:

1. Find and work with someone who genuinely cares about your work to give you honest but compassionate feedback.*

2. Hire someone to do the work for you. This way we give a monetary figure to our torpor. Now there's a hard price for the lack of interest in completing work but the work still gets done. And that's the only thing to get us out of our misery - finished work!

- * (I'm not suggesting that one should avoid folks who offer brutal yet honest feedback - no - just saying avoid the patently negative discouraging or jealous feedback. Even though you rationally conclude that envious and obviously unfounded negative feedback does not need to discourage you, they still do!)

Nail on the head; I work alone at home and it's getting to me (even though I'm somewhat introverted). #1 can't really work for me but #2 is a good idea. I just wish I could grow big enough to have an office with a couple full-time employees so I could be around people daily.

Interesting, I must be more introverted, I love love love working alone at home and really don't like cafes and this open floor plan culture that start-ups have. Personality differences really do come into play, something else I wish more organizations took into account!

That's interesting, do you have a strong end vision that you're aiming for? What I've found for myself is that short-term excitement from a cool project or technology or team I'm working on eventually fades, and is not a substitute for long-term passion.

For me, I'm trying to change consumerism...it's a hell of a BHAG, but by pursuing this vision that I genuinely care about, I may have short-term periods of exhaustion instead of excitement, but I'm guaranteeing longer-term reserves of motivation.

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