Comment by fasteo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by fasteo | Hacker News Reader

I am still amazed that this product is attracting some much attention. This product is crap, born out of plain gross ignorance.

- Completely useless source of Vitamin D (D2 instead of D3).

- All K1, nothing of K2.

- Alpha-tocopherol as the only source of Vitamin E family (4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols)

- Retinol as the only source of Vitamin A (80% should come from mixed carotenoids)

- Iron ???? You should NEVER supplement with iron (probably the same for copper)

- Inferior form of Magnesium (oxide). Should use citrate, or some chelated form.

I would go on and on all day long with this but it is the missing ingredients what is really disturbing:

Macro (carbs,protein and fat) plus micro (vitamins, minerals and trace elements) are just the tip of the iceberg when we talk about healthy nutrition. Where are all the phytonutrients (flavonoids, glucosinolates, phytoestrogens, carotenoids, etc) ? They are a "non nutritive", bioactive little molecules that make the fine tuning (read anti-cancer, immune system potentiators, etc) within our body. They are not essential for life, but they are indeed essential for health and longevity. There are 20.000+ known phytonutrients and it is now clear that they work together in synergistic fashion to provide their health benefits. Macros are as a good as the phytonutrients that come with them.

Phytonutrients are those little resistors, condensers and little chips you see in the motherboard that doesn't really get into the spec sheets: They seem to do nothing, but try to remove them and see your CPU blow up.

I go shopping once per-week and I can make a rare steak with sea salt and a big fresh spinach+tomato+olive oil+vinegar salad in 3 minutes, chronometer in hand. Liver with onions - once per week - take 20 minutes to prepare but it pays off: A authentic nutrient powerhouse.

I do love supplements, but I use them the way they are meant to be used: as supplements.

> I can make a rare steak with sea salt and a big fresh spinach+tomato+olive oil+vinegar salad in 3 minutes

Not really. You spend additional time shopping for it, taking a break from other things, cleaning after, washing up, etc. That was one of the points of creating the product in the first place - dealing with food every day is boring for some people, so let's try to eliminate it.

True. In my case, I enjoy shopping at farmer´s market. It is a great time for my family and my kids really enjoy it.

Note that I am not against eliminating boredom from food. I am against a poorly designed product that cannot possibly replace a whole-food diet. Not even close, but close enough to keep you alive, and IMHO, that´s a great irresponsibility.

But most people don't eat a carefully balanced whole-food diet. It doesn't need to be perfect - it needs to be as good as what people would otherwise eat.

This is sadly true. Replacing equals things here: crap food replaced by a crap supplement (or meal replacement or whatever).

You are right here and I am out of arguments in this direction. I really mean it.

> You should NEVER supplement with iron (probably the same for copper)

One should also never take zero iron. While the high doses of iron that one gets when one takes supplementary iron as well as dietary iron are undesirable, in this case, this is the sole source of iron in the diet.

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I do agree somewhat with the (very common, they've heard it all before) "missing substance" argument.

Personally I'm excited as to the results of this uncontrolled large scale experiment -- this is a unique opportunity with willing participants which has the opportunity to change our understanding of things the body needs.

I'll stick with my DIY whole foods variant, thank you very much.

I see you hold strong opinions (I am very critical of Soylent myself), but it might be wise to re-visit the evidence for some of your strongly-held assertions --otherwise you might end up misinforming others, and yourself.

For instance, what you say about 'NEVER supplement[ing] with iron' is quite wrong. Iron deficiency anemia is quite common, especially for young women; and it is routinely treated by iron supplementation [1], even over-the-counter: if anything, iron's bioavailability in adults is very low, and it is difficult to exceed safe levels (although it's the opposite for children) [2].

Also Vitamin D2 is not useless at all. Even though some recent studies have shown some limited evidence that D3 is stronger and longer-acting; decades of clinical practice have shown the safety and efficacy of high-dose D2 in treating severe vitamin D deficiency [3]. It's disingenuous to say otherwise.

And... what you say about Vitamin K1 vs K2 is also far from well-established. Putting aside the fact that actual clinical vitamin K deficiency is extremely rare in the first place, K1 is the most commonly used form for a reason: even though there has been some recent work indicating possible differences in bioavailability and function on the part of K2; current knowledge is still very limited, and there is not enough evidence to displace K1 as the main formulation approved for dietary supplements [1,2].

I could go on and on with other inaccuracies in what you said, but you get the idea.

Also be careful with overdoing that liver with onions habit. Even though animal river is very rich in iron and copper (which likely explains part of how you feel after eating it); it also happens to contain high amounts of vitamin A in retinoid (retinol) form, which as you correctly point out should be taken in moderation due to their much higher bioavailability vis a vis carotenoids, thus increasing its potential toxicity [7].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_supplement

[2] http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/lifestyle-guid...

[3] http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/589256_4

[4] http://www.ilsi.org/Europe/Documents/Menaquinones%20and%20hu...

[5] http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/nda_op_ej822_vit_k2_...

[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver_(food)

[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A#Equivalencies_of_reti...

Great review.

I should have pointed out that we are talking about healthy subjects here. People with anemia should take iron supplements. I am with you here. Same for people with severe vit D. deficiency. In this case, any form of vit. D will benefit them.

Thanks for the advice about the liver. I only take it once a week and a very limited amount (maybe 70-80 grams). In this case, my main course if basmatic rice with the liver for some fantastic flavoring.

Yeap, I love eating real food.

Oh ok, got you. Thank you for clarifying.

Sure! As long as that's not polar bear liver [1]; you be mindful of other unlikely dietary sources of unusually high retinol content like sweet potatoes, pumpkins or cod liver oil [2]; and keep up with regular check-ups; you'll surely avoid hypervitaminosis A.

[1] http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Hypervitaminosis.htm

[2] http://bestnaturalfoods.com/newsletter/vitamin-a-too-much.ht...

Case in point to show how I use supplements: My kids won´t take liver, no matter how hard I try to "hide" it. So, I give them 1/4 teaspoon per week of cod liver oil (green pastures, fermented).

Again, it´s not the supplements; it´s the product.

Regarding vitamin D, I would add that the only way to make sure your vitamin D level is sufficient is to get tested. Relying on the DRI alone will leave some people insufficient. I expect that many Soylent users will be insufficient and maybe deficient in vitamin D, not because of any failing on Soylent's part, but because this is already true for a random selection of the non-Soylent-using population. Dark-skinned individuals, obese individuals, and people with very little sun exposure (or living at a high latitude) are more likely to be deficient.

Practically speaking, this means: during your next annual physical, make sure your doctor tests your vitamin D along with your other bloodwork. The correct test is called 25(OH)D. Your insurance should cover it. (I am making an assumption about how privileged most HNers are.) Aim for a blood level of 30-40 ng/mL. <20 ng/mL is deficient, >=30 is sufficient, while >40 is probably pushing it, i.e. observational studies suggest that mortality starts to increase slightly around that point. A level greater than 50 ng/mL is almost certainly excessive, though still not close to toxicity. Some people argue for supplementing enough vitamin D to achieve higher blood levels (>40 ng/mL), but IMO the evidence doesn't support doing this and it might be harmful.

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