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Comment by jds375 | Hacker News Reader

Here's a link to Starting Strength[1]. I highly recommend it for people looking to bulk, tone, and put on some real muscle. It did wonders for me and I'm sure it will for you too. I also recommend doing these powerlifting exercises (such as squats, bench, and deadlift) with a focus on FORM first instead of weight. It'll prevent you from getting injured and payoff when you start lifting real heavy weight. I highly recommend these videos to teach you powerlifting form[2][3][4]. Also, the nice people on r/fitness over at reddit won't mind giving you a form check if you post a video of you lifting. Seriously, start now. It'll change your life.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0982522738?pc_redir=1400896569...

[2] http://youtube.com/watch?v=2ME8gEN54Ao&feature=kp

[3] http://youtube.com/watch?v=EHx1gYTA-Rw

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS2wLZSdeDg

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Unless your rail thin and a teenager, I'd avoid Rip's diet advice. It will undoubtedly get you fat.

Lyle McDonald's bodyrecomposition.com is, as far as I'm concerned, the best nutrition resource on the internet. Lyle does a great job of taking clinical research and boiling it down to practical applications for people who train.

Agreed. Mark Rippetoe's diet will make you gain body fat. In his defense, he mentions this several times in the book, writing things approximately like, "People are in love with their visible abs. This diet will break your affair off."

That's true. I really needed to bulk so it worked for me (gained 30 pounds in about half a year). That being said, for those looking to control weight and do something more manageable I would definitely recommend McDonald's guide.

I also think the focus on squatting and dead lifting does not produce very aesthetic results for a lot of guys. Some people have twiggy legs and benefit from putting on some lower body mass. But a lot more guys who progress to intermediate squat and deadlift numbers wind up with over sized thighs and glutes and frankly it doesn't look good. Nor is it very "functional" outside of the lifts. That kind of bulk definitely slows you down on the court/track/field.

People get caught up in stuff like the deadlift because you build up to what seem like big numbers. But the fact is, it's not very impressive. Most guys can get there. And it's not very useful, athletically speaking.

I think Rippetoe's original schtick was built around bulking kids up for certain positions on high school football teams. Having an extra 20# to throw around at age 17 is going to really help a lineman. I'm a bit skeptical about the wider reverence the Rippetoe approach gets these days.

"the deadlift [...] is not very impressive, [...] and it's not very useful, athletically speaking."

That is probably the most false statement I've ever read on the internet. Which is saying something. Athletically speaking, there is no single exercise better than the deadlift. With the squat coming in at #2.

If you play tennis, box, run 400m, or play basketball, then pursuing a heavy weight deadlift routine is going to compromise your performance. Sometimes it might help build some strength, but beyond a limited amount sinking a lot of training capacity into it is going to slow you down and compromise endurance. This is not remotely controversial.

All of those exercises demand explosive strength from the legs. Which is what the deadlift is very, very efficient at producing.

Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrLVlbgwcW8#t=80

This guy is doing a 47 inch box jump... out of a pool. This is what deadlifting does.

I know people who were able to dunk in high school as teenagers and were very explosive. Than they started weight lifing regime, lifted hard for a decade (solid weights on compund movements), still can't really dunk no more, while they should be even more explosive.

Thing is, pylometrics is still nr. 1 for most explosivnes and also olimpic lifting, but not classis weight lifting, strength is not power.

+EDIT: This guy on the video does far more than just DL to achive what he does, he is also very competent at calisthenics, he does one leg hill jums and other extremely difficult exercises ... Claiming this is a product of solely DL is misinforming.

Diet != losing weight. The GOMAD (gallon of milk a day) diet is not designed for you to lose weight. It's designed to maximize daily caloric intake, which in turn maximizes speed of recovery.

Once you're done with starting strength, you switch to something like IF (intermittent fasting) to cut the excess fat. Then you end up with lots of muscle and no fat.

You can either lose fat or gain muscle. It's incredibly difficult to do both at the same time.

GOMAD is also specifically designed for teenagers with no fat or muscle that don't know how to consume 3000 + calories/day (and I believe Rip usually wants them in the 4-5000 range). What I'm saying is that this is an inefficient approach for almost everyone outside that demographic that has any sort of interest in improved appearance (i.e. almost everyone).

Your body can only build muscle at a certain rate, and the rest of the caloric surplus is going to be converted to body fat. So what I'm saying is if you are willing to pay a little bit of attention to macro nutrient intake, you can gain muscle with much less of the associated body fat that comes with bulking.

This way, you have to much less to cut. More importantly, you learn how to eat properly which is essential for long term success.

The point is to have a caloric surplus. Because then you can guarantee maximum recovery.

"difficult to do both at the same time"

With right combination you can do it. Targeted Keto/IF combination seems to be quite effective. Sheds fat while maintaining (or gaining) muscle mass and minimizing the impact of the diet to your strength levels. I've dropped +25kg BW while gaining +5kg of muscle mass and gaining/maintaining my big-lifts. I noticed that going from Stronglift 5x5 to Madcow really helped my recovery. Mostly as my body couldn't keep up with the heavy squatting and deadlifting too many times during the week.

Yup. But if you're doing both at the same time, you are not maximizing your gains. You could be increasing strength much faster, then cut much faster afterwards.

But I would assume that heavy cut will end up eating your gains too?

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but before starting a serious deadlifting / squat / snatch / jerk routine, please please go to a trainer. You need instruction for correct form. The aforementioned exercises will work very well for you, but if performed incorrectly they can permanently injure your back. If money is a concern, there are often private trainers (I can give references in sf) not associated with a gym that are very affordable -- eg $65/hour in sf, much less expensive elsewhere.

NB: a good trainer can, at minimum, perform those exercises for reps with more than bodyweight. Many gyms -- 24 hour fitness and crunch come to mind -- employ "trainers" who appear to hopefully have read a book but are wildly unprepared to train others in exercises that can destroy body parts if performed incorrectly.

As someone who started with Starting Strength about a year ago, and who goes to a gym in Manhattan with lots of trainers around...

Nope. The book is far superior to any of the trainers I've encountered. The book has so much detail on each exercise, it will take you weeks to absorb it, but if you read relevant parts before/after each workout, to make sure you're doing everything right, you'll probably wind up with much better form and technique than a random trainer's personal opinions.

And if you don't already know the correct form/technique, then how on earth are you going to evaluate which trainer you can trust? Answer: you can't. The book is the way to go, if you can be conscientious about reading it thoroughly, constantly reviewing it, and following what it says.

As someone who started lifting a year ago: you don't know what you're talking about, but don't let that stop you from giving others advice that could hurt them.

For the rest of people interested in getting strong: get a competent trainer (one easy evaluation metric is, as I mentioned, their deadlift maxes; greater than 500 pounds makes avoiding injury w/o good form very unlikely; or participation in powerlifting events; etc).

Why does it have to be one or the other? Your main point is that one requires instruction to attain the correct form. That can be achieved by reading the book and properly following it, or seeing a competent trainer, or both.

There are some good trainers who can help, and there are certainly many who are worse than useless.

As for the book, it has hundreds of pages explaining in great technical detail exactly how each exercise is to be performed and some useful photos are also included. There's no reason why you can't get the form down properly using the instructions in the book, and maybe even have a friend record your form so you can check it against the photos.

I've read the book many times, looked at reputable youtube videos, had people with perfect form try to correct mine and still have trouble understanding how to do the lifts perfectly. My brain just turns off during the workout and takes a while to come back. Starting Strength's 30 pages per lift are also overwhelming. I really only need a checklist of 30 things per lift and have to figure out which to emphasize for my crap posture, knees out, chest up, etc.

My numbers should be better, 2.7 years, 185 BW, 400 lb deadlift, 275 bench, 275x5 squat, 150 OHP. All thanks to crappy form, not understanding how to do the exercise properly. People with hunchback posture have a lot more to think about than those with good posture. I got to 375x5 deadlift within 1.5 years. But my form was already crap at 245 and I had no idea because I only checked with video at 225. Also filmed myself and couldn't tell what I was doing wrong, looked ok as far as I could tell at the time. But it was wrong. My idea of how to deadlift/squat/OHP was fundamentally wrong at 1.5 year mark. Bench needed major corrections.

You might be doing it wrong too, you can get away with it for a long time.

A trainer at some globo gym like Planet Fitness, Bally etc. won't promise correct form for 300 lb deadlifters, even if they pull 500 lb themselves. They're just there to make total novices feel comfortable.

If you want proper training you need to find a freeweight focused place like a powerlifting gym, maybe crossfit and pay whatever obnoxious price they charge for personal attention. Train a few months there to get started. Or hope you're not as dumb as me and rely on youtube and books.

Well, my max deadlift comes pretty close to 500lbs and I have been lifting for far longer than a mere year and I'm sorry to say that you are wrong.

You don't need to go to a trainer. I learned everything I know from reading, watching videos and having my form critiqued. It's actually better to go to a good powerlifting gym and make friends with some strong people, but you don't NEED to. At least not until you get to pretty elite levels.

In fact, going to a the typical trainer at the gym is a waste of money, effort, and is MORE likely to get you hurt (like rhabdomyolysis for instance). Half of those guys will just have you balance on a bosu ball while doing some arbitrary movement, and rake in your hundred+ dollars an hour. You might go home more sore than a 30 minute lifting session, but you effectively wasted your time, and probably simply decreased the likelyhood you'll even go back.

No, lifting weights isn't some magical or super technical thing (unless you are doing Olympic lifting, then, then I'd suggest getting a coach, not a trainer).

Edit: FWIW, if you can find a trainer that can DL 500lbs that is at a regular gym, I'd be liable to eat my hat. Now show me that same trainer that actually trains his clients with a routine for beginners as good or better than Starting Strength, and I'll eat my hat without ketchup.

Deadlift of 507lbs raw (no belt, just chalk) here, been training for 4+ years.

When I started, I lucked out when I started training and got a trainer who started me on light squats and barbell bench. Then after a while I made friends with the strongest guys in the gym who have been training for 15+ years.

I dont think you need to find a hulking trainer - my advice would be to find a trainer who has been training for a long time. By that stage they have realised that slow, steady, consistent progress is much more important than just quickly posting huge numbers. They are much more likely to know the benefits of maintaining good form because they will have suffered, and recovered from, injuries.

P.s. I know a trainer who can DL over 500lbs - though he trains mostly women, he does get them deadlifting. They dont do anything like SS because they have different goals.

It always seems weird to me when someone shits on another person's credentials without stating their own.

>>As someone who started lifting a year ago: you don't know what you're talking about, but don't let that stop you from giving others advice that could hurt them.

I have been lifting for five years and I can conclusively state that you are grossly misinformed about this issue.

Fact: the vast majority of trainers out there are shitty. The problem with relying on them as a beginner is that you cannot recognize the shitty ones from the good ones. Simplest example: most trainers will tell you not to go below parallel when you squat, which is just wrong advice. But as a newbie, you aren't in a position to question them. So you will learn wrong form and will be more likely to develop muscle imbalances and injuries.

Therefore, your advice of relying on a trainer to show you good form is potentially far more harmful than using the book as a reference.

I agree with the person you responded to. The advice I've received from "certified trainers" on deadlift and squats has been far inferior to 1) looking up proper form online and 2) comparing that against my form in the mirror, or video I took of my lift with my phone.

Save the money, skip the trainer, watch some of Rippetoe's videos, record yourself, and improve. Of course if you have the money to spend, and will feel more confident with a trainer, then by all means do that. But be responsible for your own health and still do your own homework.

I've always been interested in the Starting Strength program, but was intimidated by gyms and the equipment, so I did this recently. I'm not too far from Wichita Falls, so I was able to find a personal trainer who was very familiar with Rippetoe and his work and had even been trained by him before.

It was definitely a worthwhile investment. After a month and a half of coaching with a personal trainer, I feel a lot more confident with going to a gym or using my own equipment now. I'd still be going to the same trainer if I could fit it into my schedule.

Another similar workout plan is Stronglifts 5x5[1]. I have never done starting strength but I am a fan of stronglifts and it has a free app that does wonders at the gym for tracking your progress.

[1]http://stronglifts.com/

I figure Stronglifts is more accessible because of the rows instead of powercleans (which are hard to do right), and as you as the app is great.

Same here. Rippetoe's book was fantastic for me, especially in helping to to have good form, but the Starting Strength 5x5 was the workout that actually stuck with me. IMO they compliment each other extremely well.

There's also a great Starting Strength Wiki: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wik...

Mark Rippetoe changed my life. I second this recommendation. And I've only learned to squat and bench properly so far. Looking forward to (if you'll forgive the pun) picking up the other lifts.

Rippetoe's workout is not as simple as the article portrays "built around five old-fashioned lifts" and all that. The rumors people may have heard are true, he really does write sixty pages on how to squat properly without hurting yourself, and other exercises.

The article also has a strong style over substance aspect wrt "photographs were so poorly shot". No they're actually pretty awesome if you're trying to learn how to do this safely. Its like complaining that an engineering blueprint of a perfect engine camshaft doesn't capture the fluffy marketing message of the car, well, yeah, that's kinda not the point...

Its interesting how SS has taken over the field. I've been lifting on and off (mostly off) for about 30 years and will certainly start back up again sooner or later, and its interesting watching how the field has almost universally crystallized on SS for the noobs. In like, the 80s, there was a lot more variety and a lifter might start on machines or freeweights fairly randomly.

I have the same sort of, and similar length, history with weight training.

I believe that's because it's pretty widely accepted now that free weights are more effective than machines. And, the difference is large enough that even people outside of weight lifting circles have a vague awareness of this. In the 80s, it was still really popular to use machines because they were "safer" (which is not necessarily true), they isolated specific muscles for training (mostly true, but not actually optimal), and they seemed easier than learning proper form for lifting free weights (it's still pretty easy to do it wrong with a machine).

That said, my first exposure to weight training was via a Gold's Gym book that I got at a garage sale, which also focused solely on free weights. I think the gym rats have always known iron was superior to rubber bands and elaborate systems of ropes and pulleys.

> it's pretty widely accepted now that free weights are more effective than machines.

I don't buy that. The people who say that stuff are the same ones who go on about stabilizer muscles, when there's no such thing. Machines are safer than barbells. For overhead and pull-down stuff the good machines minimize dangerous shoulder stress. Barbell squats and deadlifts quite simply are somewhat dangerous and even very experienced people manage to tweak their backs.

Between you believing the deadlift has no athletic benefit, and thinking machines are more effective than free weights, I'm wondering what your background in fitness is. I think the debate about safety is reasonable though.

I didn't say machines are more effective. I said they're safer, and that free weights are not magically more effective than machines.

I also didn't say the deadlift has no athletic benefit. I said it is fetishized and its usefulness is blown out of all proportion. It's seductive because a beginner can rapidly increase loads. But mostly it builds mass that is not very useful for real sports and impairs endurance. Always betting against the puffed up fighter has been a reliable betting strategy.

If you want to spend your training capacity building up to a 500# deadlift, go for it. Just don't kid yourself that it's particularly impressive or will help you do much else other than deadlift.

Your comment said you doubt the increased effectiveness of free weights over machines, which seems hard to doubt. Like I said, I think debating the claim that free weights are safer is totally fair; it seems the real conversation is about which type of safety the other is talking about.

As for the deadlift, I get your point. I do think that you are making it an either-or thing, in that you're either piling on mass with the deadlift or your not getting stronger. Athletes don't do starting strength, they should be using the deadlift as part of a well-rounded training routine rather than trying to set PR after PR. I agree with you that a singular focus on deadlifts/squats for most athletes is detrimental, but that doesn't mean it has no place whatsoever. I'd also bet against the athlete who focused on it in such a way.

Anecdotally though, I've found the deadlift to be very functional for me. And who are you to say that someone moving from 135 to a 350lb deadlift, and then maybe to 500lbs isn't impressive? I'm impressed with anyone that can motivate themselves to some sort of physical goal.

I think it's your derision that I find most off-putting. Deadlifting is hard work that takes time, so kudos to anyone that sticks with and improves themselves in a way that makes them happy. Yeah, almost everyone can do it, but most people don't. Is running a marathon impressive? What about a triathlon? Biking a century? Or are the only things worth being impressed by the things genetics make impossible for the masses?

Machines ARE safer strictly with respect to sitting in the machine.

Outside the machine, I have personal experience that your shoulder, leg, and arm muscles might be able to trivially lift a mere concrete block but your back muscles (luckily in my case not a ligament) were not strengthened by the machine to a similar level leading to quite a bit of pain and damage. Which is the short version of life experiences explaining why I'll probably never go back to machines in the future.

Given an infinite number of machines, presumably one for every muscle or so, and an infinite amount of knowledge such that you strengthen your back to always be 5% stronger than your arms or whatever, then machines would be safer than free weights. Of course given spherical cows I'd have the same level of knowledge and safety of free weights.

You certainly could hurt your back without any relationship to strength training at all. Or even hurt yourself after freeweights. But it is more likely after machine work.

There is also a practical matter of scale. Lets be realistic. A really bad day of lifting won't be much worse than naturally happens to fat couch potatoes every day, so its no really big deal. On the other hand a "really bad day" of bicycling means getting turned into grease under the wheels of a truck, or a "really bad day" of hiking means hunters find your body after a couple months. Its not in practice a serious concern, compared to other human activities.

Not that opposition to machines is some kind of amish / historical re-enactor philosophical opposition. Not using a squat rack when squatting is probably an excellent way to hurt yourself. Someone should invent a machine or technique to do bench presses safely while alone.

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