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Comment by ChuckMcM | Hacker News Reader

I find it more interesting that they are growing this lettuce in a completely artificial environment at scale. One step toward a closed loop habitat but at a potentially larger scale than simple aquaponics installations. I'm still waiting for a 'high rise' farm, basically a multi-story hydroponics installation which can produce more food per surface acre than an existing farm can. If you can master the pollination cycle and control pests through environmental controls you have the basis for a sort of 'super-organic' type of farm.

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Growing more food per acre in an indoor hydroponic farm is a reality today. The problem is your romaine from that hydro farm down the road is $3.99, and from the traditional farm shipped across the country is $1.99. Lights are a big part of the equation. Most plants need 10+ hours of sunlight a day, so even if you put the plants on a rotisserie you still have to supplement with artificial light ($$$). The amount of water and land you save is immense, however, the water and land cost of putting a farm in an urban area counters that.

Pollination is easy - bees. Even basement/garage growers will use bees to pollinate. That said, you don't need bees in this example as you never want lettuce (or any leafy green) to flower. You can control the flowering with reduced temp and different light temperatures, too. In tomato/pepper/fruiting plants, you'll need manual pollination or a beehive in your hydro-warehouse.

Re: super-organic - Most hydroponic growing is not organic. By nature of adding nutrients (fertilizer, salts, ph adjustments) that replace what is found in soil means hydroponics is traditionally not organic. There are organic hydroponics going on (I am not aware of a large-scale one) and they are NOT clean nor bug free, given the nature of making organic nutrients (they smell like shit, really, as most are compost or something-rotting-based).

I grow herbs in my house in a consumer grade hydro system (really, like basil and mint, and sometimes lettuce, not weed) and a big thing for the organic types is no herbicides and no pesticides and that is pretty trivial for indoor hydro.

Right. But, having no herbicide/pesticide/chemicals used does not make it organic. Many folks want that "organic" label on it.

Do you have any links/references for a large scale hydroponics operation? This was the last significant piece I read (http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/dirt-free-farming-will-hydro...) which was from last June that talked primarily about the costs.

There are externalities that are increasing the cost of 'land' farming, among them water availability, GMO concerns, pest control, and land/labor costs. At some point robot harvested, hydroponically grown, vegetables will cap the cost of producing food that way. And if the 'old fashioned' way will become more expensive than that.

The key difference in cost between the two is, as you point out, the cost of energy. Using 'free' solar power versus using grow lights, changes the equation fairly dramatically. But one of the possible futures is that humans will master the ability to harvest more abundant energy. In so doing, I believe humans will have changed the economics of hydroponics dramatically, and things like pest control and labor cost advantages will swing over to the hydroponics side.

farmedhere is the biggest I know of in the US: http://farmedhere.com/2013/urban-agriculture-grows-up

Re: cost -- "FarmedHere CEO Jolanta Hardej says a 5.5-ounce box of its arugula retails in local markets for $4.99, 50 to 75 cents more than imported organic arugula. Still, she says it sells out because it is fresher and tastier. "

That is a ton, price wise, considering it is over the price of the organic which is over the price of what most consumers are buying.

If you can use solar to power lights within your grow building, good, but you'll never make it a 1:1 sun:light ratio... Plus the cost of panels (going down).

I'm not a naysayer, just trying to be realistic. I have a fair amount of stuff growing in my basement in a mostly hands-off approach (reporting is here: http://www.oakwoodproduce.com/hydrolog/dashboard.html).. I think after a year I am breaking even or even ahead on kale, chard, lettuce, and for sure herbs. We haven't bought leafy greens or herbs in a long time, and often give away to the neighbors, food trucks, etc. My monthly cost is around $80 for lights and $20 for water/nutrients/supplies/seeds.

Tomatoes and peppers get pricey - need higher powered, hotter lights which need cooling and more electricity...

These guys are large scale and down your way: http://www.viridisaquaponics.com/

They have 8 acres of greenhouse in Watsonville, and a producing some really impressive quantities of greens: more than 10 times per acre per year over conventional. They are aquaponic, which means they are growing both vegetables and fish (mostly sturgeon in their case). I have a friend with lots of traditional ag experience who visited them recently, and he seemed close to proclaiming they were the path to the future. I'll join you if you wrangle a tour.

Nice! I've 'reached out' to them, to use the vernacular, to see if they are open to informal tours. I'd love to see the control systems they use in a place like that. And understand where their current challenges are.

Do you have any links/references for a large scale hydroponics operation?

According to [0] from 2000, about 8% of the greenhouses in Almeria, Spain use hydroponics. [1] from 2010 says it's now 10%. The pictures in [2] show that 10% is still a lot...

[0] http://www.schundler.com/spain.htm

[1] http://books.google.com/books?id=5Ag-wT0rLEMC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA...

[2] http://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/08/the-greenhouses-of-alme...

"If you can master the pollination cycle and control pests through environmental controls you have the basis for a sort of 'super-organic' type of farm."

Ironically, if you mastered indoor multi-story growing and it became the norm, you would almost certainly create a new marketing label for food that was grown in one layer outdoors. Similar to how we currently have a marketing label for "organic" food.

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