Comment by opendais | Hacker News Reader

Comment by opendais | Hacker News Reader

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Exactly. I pretty much go "Am I paid as much as my coworkers with degrees?" The answer is generally yes, given the same level of experience.

I think what this graph shows is it is really, really hard to break into the jobs at entry level without a college degree. If you fail to break in after a couple years of trying, I suspect most people give up and permanently have their income lowered as a result.

I really, really wish these stats were based on 'same profession'. [e.g. Software Developers w/ Degrees vs. Software Developers w/o Degrees]

And I highly suspect that the reason that is never done is it will show that the value of the degree vs. a guy who took $15/hr contracting jobs for a couple years until he 'broke in' to being a Software Dev is close to 0. At which point, the self taught dev is ahead in both 'work experience' and financially.

But I could be wrong, no one has done that sort of study that I know of :/

EDIT: The closest I could find is: http://cew.georgetown.edu/collegepayoff https://georgetown.app.box.com/s/ctg48m85ftqm7q1vex8y

It shows ~$700k lifetime earnings gap for STEM [bachelors vs. highschool diploma]. So, over ~45 years, we are talking a loss of ~15.5k/year on average.

Its not quite as precise as what I was hoping for but such is life since I wanted Position to Position.

This view on higher education saddens me a bit.

Is the self taught dev in your example ahead in work experience and financially? For sure. For how long though? I've personally seen brilliant people stuck in positions they don't belong in just because people generally prefer to give an opportunity to the most educated fellow of the group. Anyway one of the reasons I enrolled in college because I wanted to learn stuff I would probably not have a chance to learn while working. College opens a lot of opportunities (living abroad, studying abroad, prestige internships) that self-taught people usually can't simply 'break-in'. As a simple example, research groups are usually closed to people with college degrees. Not to mention the friendships, freedom to learn new things, the environment in which you can fall and stand up again easily, that college provides.

On the other hand, there are some benefits you can't just dismiss. Try telling a Japanese immigration officer you want to apply for a skilled worker visa because you learned a bunch of stuff contracting and on the internet.

I'm not saying the world is right not taking self-educated people as seriously as college educated people, but as long as the world works like that, self-taught geniuses will be at a disadvantage the same way college-educated punks will have an advantage.

PS: I purposefully didn't start to mention that the upsides of getting a college degree are virtually the same in the US as in places where the ratio 'upside/price' might be much higher.

I'm curious about the income portion of it mainly because it is the reality I live in, regardless of other advantages. I'm well aware there are some limitations to the choices I've made in life, like any other set of choices. However, if I care purely about the financial benefits...without a study showing one way or the other how can anyone make an informed decision based on facts rather than anecdotal evidence? :/

That is the part I was trying to get at.

> I suspect most people give up and permanently have their income lowered as a result.

And as you age, it becomes even harder to break into an entry-level position. I know a few folks who didn't go to college, and ended up in low-end jobs and are hoping their experience will lift them out of it. But it's been a very very hard thing to do. Many of them aren't qualified for the upper-tier jobs their experience would normally have gotten them, so they're readjusting and shooting for entry level (which would still be a pay increase), but are finding the requirements issues even stiffer.

I'm curious what you are defining as 'low-end' jobs?

Are we talking people who make 60k a year? 30k?

Are we talking about people in their 30s? 40s? 50s?

30-40k. U.S. Major Metro Area. In their late 30s, early 40s. Getting on to 20 years of work experience.

Hmmm, I make north of 60k. So I'm not sure if I should be concerned...bah.

Are you saying they experienced an income drop or just a lack of income increase?

Lack of income increase. One guy I know would consider a 60+k job as almost a doubling of his income, which has been more or less fixed for the last 10 years. Which, with inflation, means it's a de facto slow pay reduction.

He also really struggles with putting out resumes, 8 solid years of rejections makes him think he's formatting his resume wrong, or not describing his job right. But the little feedback he's gotten is that he's simply not meeting the minimum job requirements.

But he's way overqualified on the work experience, just no education credentials. So a firm takes a chance if they hire him that he'll jump ship soon for a better paying gig more commensurate to his experience level, or they hope that his experience was complete enough to fill in the gaps that a solid education would provide...but why take the risk, there's dozens of candidates for every open position at every level, most of whom will fill the minimum requirements.

Hmmm, for the past 6 years I've basically seen my income go up faster than inflation. Honestly, for a software dev position, entry level is a comfortable level of living (50k+) as long as it keeps up with inflation for me which it has.

This makes me wonder if we are comparing apples to oranges, which is why I wish there would be studies which were position to position. Or, once software developers become too numerous, I'll be stuck in the same position.

I guess I really, really should consider a side business that I can transition into a full time living [that isn't contracting] at where a gatekeeper/employer isn't responsible for my income.

Thanks

It also depends where you live. In my neck of the woods $50k is probably an okay living for a single person. A couple will want to have more like $70-75k. Throw in some kids and you're pretty quickly north of $100k.

I'm not talking fancy living, just decent apartment in a nice area, regular sedan, eat out once in a while and have enough for a road-trip vacation out of state once a year kind of life.

People manage to do it on far less, but most of my friends dealing with this dream of renting an apartment at all without a cosigner (most rent out of somebody else's home), drive strings of used cars in bad shape, never take vacation, eat crap food at home 3 meals a day 7 days a week, and have major financial emergencies over any unexpected expense that's over $200. That's a $30k/yr life.

The ones in the $40k/yr range usually are true of all the above, but rent a small apartment, have a reliable used car, and have major financial emergencies when the unexpected expense hits $350-500.

It hurts that we're in pretty much the most highly educated part of the country statistically, surrounded by six of the ten richest counties in America. The competition here is pretty intense.

Maybe I am just hitting the lucky spot in terms of industry, occupation, and location then.

I just hope I can maintain it then :)

A more heinous position that I know some older folks are in is that they've received enough pay increases over their 20 years that switching to an entry level position is actually a pay cut. Often that pay cut would be enough that they couldn't pay their bills, so they're effectively stuck in the same job they've always had.

Career changing is very hard. Often if you want to switch, your skill level actually is at an entry level. But convincing somebody to hire a 40-60 year old at an entry level job, even if they're more than qualified, is pretty tough.

Ya, a career change wouldn't happen for me. I like making things enough that I'm just as happy now as I was when I was tinkering with stuff in high school.

I think career changes really require starting over because your experience isn't 100% translatable.

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